1
00:00:27,060 --> 00:00:23,410
hello and welcome to the skeptics own

2
00:00:30,190 --> 00:00:27,070
show number 27 for the 24th of April a

3
00:00:33,040 --> 00:00:30,200
special show with our guest Rob Morrison

4
00:00:35,049 --> 00:00:33,050
a lot of you will remember especially if

5
00:00:37,689 --> 00:00:35,059
you're in Australia will remember Rob

6
00:00:39,340 --> 00:00:37,699
Morrison from the Curiosity show but

7
00:00:41,160 --> 00:00:39,350
he's also a professorial fellow at

8
00:00:44,830 --> 00:00:41,170
Flinders University in South Australia

9
00:00:46,450 --> 00:00:44,840
specializing in zoology but in today's

10
00:00:49,540 --> 00:00:46,460
show he's going to talk to us all about

11
00:00:52,899 --> 00:00:49,550
the days of the Curiosity show and his

12
00:00:54,880 --> 00:00:52,909
other media interests also in today's

13
00:00:57,009 --> 00:00:54,890
show we have a little adventure where

14
00:01:00,880 --> 00:00:57,019
dr. Rach you and I go on a search for

15
00:01:04,119 --> 00:01:00,890
hot salami more about that later and a

16
00:01:05,439 --> 00:01:04,129
grain of salt with Iran to give but

17
00:01:27,440 --> 00:01:05,449
let's start straight away without

18
00:01:27,450 --> 00:01:36,110
Oh

19
00:01:36,120 --> 00:01:51,770
you

20
00:01:56,789 --> 00:01:54,719
and now we're delighted to be here in

21
00:01:58,440 --> 00:01:56,799
beautiful Bridgewater in South Australia

22
00:02:00,899 --> 00:01:58,450
talking to rob morrison hello wrong

23
00:02:02,550 --> 00:02:00,909
today very great to be here what a

24
00:02:04,859 --> 00:02:02,560
beautiful place you have I'm looking out

25
00:02:06,840 --> 00:02:04,869
the window now too gorgeous view of the

26
00:02:10,290 --> 00:02:06,850
gum trees and everything but I I know

27
00:02:13,559 --> 00:02:10,300
you are a little bit wary of bushfire

28
00:02:15,900 --> 00:02:13,569
yes we have a lot of native scrub here

29
00:02:18,120 --> 00:02:15,910
and you can see it's a little five acre

30
00:02:20,130 --> 00:02:18,130
valley and you look out over it and then

31
00:02:23,850 --> 00:02:20,140
beyond that it goes into some of the

32
00:02:25,050 --> 00:02:23,860
rear patches of native scrub remaining

33
00:02:26,789 --> 00:02:25,060
in the air date Hills it's only got

34
00:02:29,630 --> 00:02:26,799
about three percent left of original

35
00:02:32,220 --> 00:02:29,640
forest so we look after pretty well but

36
00:02:34,199 --> 00:02:32,230
there is a reserve close to it which was

37
00:02:36,570 --> 00:02:34,209
on fire three times in the last week he

38
00:02:37,890 --> 00:02:36,580
kept hearing up and we're rebuilding at

39
00:02:40,080 --> 00:02:37,900
the moment so you said on the roof

40
00:02:42,420 --> 00:02:40,090
trying to put things together while

41
00:02:43,830 --> 00:02:42,430
bombers flew overhead and helicopter

42
00:02:46,259 --> 00:02:43,840
zoom down on you and it was a bit like

43
00:02:48,240 --> 00:02:46,269
World War two but fortunately it didn't

44
00:02:51,270 --> 00:02:48,250
do a huge amount of damage the window is

45
00:02:53,280 --> 00:02:51,280
down sir in the aftermath of those

46
00:02:55,949 --> 00:02:53,290
terrible victorian fires everyone's very

47
00:02:57,750 --> 00:02:55,959
spooked yeah I'm sure they are I'm sure

48
00:02:59,970 --> 00:02:57,760
they are well let's go right back to the

49
00:03:02,640 --> 00:02:59,980
beginning because as I said in the

50
00:03:04,050 --> 00:03:02,650
introduction a lot of our Australian

51
00:03:06,030 --> 00:03:04,060
listeners will certainly remember you

52
00:03:08,150 --> 00:03:06,040
from the the curiosity show with the

53
00:03:10,920 --> 00:03:08,160
Dean huntin how did that all come about

54
00:03:12,150 --> 00:03:10,930
well it has its it's the only show i

55
00:03:15,330 --> 00:03:12,160
think which had about four different

56
00:03:17,789 --> 00:03:15,340
starts it began it's a long story i'll

57
00:03:19,680 --> 00:03:17,799
keep it as brief as I can Adelaide for

58
00:03:21,690 --> 00:03:19,690
some reason when television started

59
00:03:24,090 --> 00:03:21,700
always had children's television it's

60
00:03:28,080 --> 00:03:24,100
just something that the channels did and

61
00:03:30,090 --> 00:03:28,090
a channel nine particularly due to think

62
00:03:31,710 --> 00:03:30,100
of Channel 9's was it was just something

63
00:03:33,870 --> 00:03:31,720
that they chose to do and I think there

64
00:03:35,400 --> 00:03:33,880
are really unique in doing it Humphrey

65
00:03:38,400 --> 00:03:35,410
the bear is no no there was another

66
00:03:40,379 --> 00:03:38,410
thing the a lot of them had preschooler

67
00:03:41,970 --> 00:03:40,389
programs yeah and Humphrey was Channel

68
00:03:43,590 --> 00:03:41,980
Nine's and there was a fat cat one on

69
00:03:45,059 --> 00:03:43,600
channel seven a lot of the channels had

70
00:03:48,690 --> 00:03:45,069
preschool programs which were designed

71
00:03:50,789 --> 00:03:48,700
to be played during the day and in the

72
00:03:54,000 --> 00:03:50,799
morning you know when older kids were in

73
00:03:57,000 --> 00:03:54,010
school but the broadcast control board

74
00:03:59,699 --> 00:03:57,010
brought out of edict which said suddenly

75
00:04:01,649 --> 00:03:59,709
you will now start making programs for

76
00:04:02,970 --> 00:04:01,659
children of school going age and they

77
00:04:05,160 --> 00:04:02,980
will be played in out of school

78
00:04:08,490 --> 00:04:05,170
there's so suddenly they were after an

79
00:04:10,619 --> 00:04:08,500
older school child with its own time

80
00:04:12,600 --> 00:04:10,629
slot which is called the sea slot on us

81
00:04:17,099 --> 00:04:12,610
I think it was four to five on weekdays

82
00:04:18,840 --> 00:04:17,109
oh yeah and the channels all suddenly

83
00:04:20,969 --> 00:04:18,850
found they had to start making programs

84
00:04:23,850 --> 00:04:20,979
for that with this about the early 70s

85
00:04:27,330 --> 00:04:23,860
was it we're talking um it was yes it

86
00:04:29,820 --> 00:04:27,340
would have been early 70s yes early 70s

87
00:04:31,469 --> 00:04:29,830
that's right yeah now they didn't know

88
00:04:34,170 --> 00:04:31,479
what to do with this and Channel Nine's

89
00:04:36,150 --> 00:04:34,180
response was to say well we'll keep a

90
00:04:38,760 --> 00:04:36,160
Humphrey program but we pulled older

91
00:04:41,790 --> 00:04:38,770
stuff into it which was a pretty

92
00:04:43,230 --> 00:04:41,800
appalling notion because Heth so he had

93
00:04:45,090 --> 00:04:43,240
Humphrey who couldn't speak and

94
00:04:47,219 --> 00:04:45,100
everything was mime and gesticulation

95
00:04:49,170 --> 00:04:47,229
and then you had people like me who are

96
00:04:50,610 --> 00:04:49,180
aiming for 10 to 13 year olds try to do

97
00:04:53,219 --> 00:04:50,620
serious stuff with this idiot there

98
00:04:55,439 --> 00:04:53,229
behind you upstaging not exactly doing

99
00:04:57,300 --> 00:04:55,449
gravity is but the next piece think the

100
00:04:59,129 --> 00:04:57,310
three euros in fact I have the dubious

101
00:05:01,650 --> 00:04:59,139
distinction of being I think the only

102
00:05:03,990 --> 00:05:01,660
person who's ever made Humphrey talk on

103
00:05:06,480 --> 00:05:04,000
television it's not a nice story but if

104
00:05:09,360 --> 00:05:06,490
presto i'll give it to you but anyway so

105
00:05:11,310 --> 00:05:09,370
we had this this strange hybrid and for

106
00:05:13,950 --> 00:05:11,320
many years my papers are in the archives

107
00:05:15,810 --> 00:05:13,960
now and the running sheets of these

108
00:05:17,550 --> 00:05:15,820
programs also the if program because

109
00:05:19,379 --> 00:05:17,560
that's what they said when they fell

110
00:05:21,540 --> 00:05:19,389
they had to make this thing however

111
00:05:25,350 --> 00:05:21,550
years it was known as Humphrey BB is if

112
00:05:27,150 --> 00:05:25,360
program and then the f protein and I had

113
00:05:28,560 --> 00:05:27,160
a church of fellowship and 72 to go

114
00:05:32,219 --> 00:05:28,570
overseas and I was working on the

115
00:05:33,810 --> 00:05:32,229
program for a year and I was really

116
00:05:35,700 --> 00:05:33,820
working at getting rid of the beer

117
00:05:38,550 --> 00:05:35,710
because the B is terrific for his age

118
00:05:41,100 --> 00:05:38,560
group is silly to try and ecstatic and

119
00:05:44,400 --> 00:05:41,110
so that happened and then we became a

120
00:05:45,990 --> 00:05:44,410
program for 10 to 13 year olds and for

121
00:05:48,240 --> 00:05:46,000
quite some time it was a pretty awful

122
00:05:49,650 --> 00:05:48,250
program as an hour long and all things

123
00:05:51,360 --> 00:05:49,660
to all children which are done that you

124
00:05:54,810 --> 00:05:51,370
can be in quite a lot of presenters and

125
00:05:57,930 --> 00:05:54,820
no clear focus and Dean and I grew so

126
00:05:59,339 --> 00:05:57,940
unhappy with this at one stage we said

127
00:06:01,920 --> 00:05:59,349
look we don't really want to do this

128
00:06:03,990 --> 00:06:01,930
anymore but we suggest you do this we

129
00:06:05,670 --> 00:06:04,000
suggested two half-hour program with a

130
00:06:07,950 --> 00:06:05,680
science and technology base that we

131
00:06:09,930 --> 00:06:07,960
would do leaving all the other stuff to

132
00:06:12,300 --> 00:06:09,940
go into the channel niners which was a

133
00:06:13,680 --> 00:06:12,310
much more happy arrangement because it

134
00:06:15,540 --> 00:06:13,690
was the mix of all things to all people

135
00:06:16,510 --> 00:06:15,550
and we took the Science and Technology

136
00:06:17,980 --> 00:06:16,520
in men with that

137
00:06:20,050 --> 00:06:17,990
and that's the Curiosity Shop I'm glad

138
00:06:22,089 --> 00:06:20,060
to say that people remember bra that's

139
00:06:23,589 --> 00:06:22,099
the one that the went overseas to 14

140
00:06:26,080 --> 00:06:23,599
countries and when the awards and

141
00:06:28,059 --> 00:06:26,090
because I remember the curiosities show

142
00:06:30,129 --> 00:06:28,069
with more people in it was it Ezra was

143
00:06:33,219 --> 00:06:30,139
it called the curiosity show more people

144
00:06:34,899 --> 00:06:33,229
yes something else yes it was and that's

145
00:06:37,029 --> 00:06:34,909
right you you're remembering the early

146
00:06:39,450 --> 00:06:37,039
one hour all things to all people right

147
00:06:42,010 --> 00:06:39,460
because they had females in it and saw

148
00:06:44,020 --> 00:06:42,020
yes yes and that was it that was the

149
00:06:47,350 --> 00:06:44,030
direct spinoff from Humphrey then I

150
00:06:49,719 --> 00:06:47,360
think it was memory fails me a bit but i

151
00:06:51,969 --> 00:06:49,729
think was about 80 for now must be her

152
00:06:53,649 --> 00:06:51,979
Lea we moved it to this half-hour

153
00:06:55,240 --> 00:06:53,659
program all must have been early that

154
00:06:58,450 --> 00:06:55,250
anymore I won't they do would have been

155
00:07:01,420 --> 00:06:58,460
yeah but this was was this when Rob you

156
00:07:03,640 --> 00:07:01,430
were doing it in your spare time outside

157
00:07:05,529 --> 00:07:03,650
of your full-time job yes I was lucky

158
00:07:07,749 --> 00:07:05,539
and the mayor University a lot of

159
00:07:09,370 --> 00:07:07,759
universities took the line that you know

160
00:07:11,230 --> 00:07:09,380
if you're serious academic in science

161
00:07:13,719 --> 00:07:11,240
you didn't talk to the media the kind of

162
00:07:15,990 --> 00:07:13,729
mantra we grew up with was talk to media

163
00:07:17,860 --> 00:07:16,000
and professionally you finished now

164
00:07:20,770 --> 00:07:17,870
scientists have been told if you don't

165
00:07:22,629 --> 00:07:20,780
talk to the media be necessary but in

166
00:07:24,550 --> 00:07:22,639
those days it wasn't like that but I was

167
00:07:25,959 --> 00:07:24,560
more in the teaching liner I did

168
00:07:30,490 --> 00:07:25,969
research but I was particularly

169
00:07:32,379 --> 00:07:30,500
interested in teaching and I had started

170
00:07:34,749 --> 00:07:32,389
how I got into this was complete

171
00:07:37,719 --> 00:07:34,759
accident the students come up so how do

172
00:07:39,999 --> 00:07:37,729
we get into television my example is not

173
00:07:43,120 --> 00:07:40,009
fun you'd want to follow because I done

174
00:07:45,550 --> 00:07:43,130
a bit with ABC educational television

175
00:07:46,959 --> 00:07:45,560
and I thought I knew how this worked you

176
00:07:49,029 --> 00:07:46,969
came in and you talked it through and

177
00:07:51,580 --> 00:07:49,039
you had a cup of tea and then you set

178
00:07:53,740 --> 00:07:51,590
the lights have another talk and have a

179
00:07:56,110 --> 00:07:53,750
cup of tea and then have a bit of a

180
00:07:57,879 --> 00:07:56,120
rehearsal and break for lunch then you

181
00:08:00,219 --> 00:07:57,889
come back and reset the lights of dual

182
00:08:01,600 --> 00:08:00,229
that have a couple of tapes then finally

183
00:08:03,209 --> 00:08:01,610
do you know the end of the day you're

184
00:08:07,089 --> 00:08:03,219
done a really good one and off you win

185
00:08:09,430 --> 00:08:07,099
so having done that I was rearing hand

186
00:08:11,019 --> 00:08:09,440
reading a little possum they used to

187
00:08:12,339 --> 00:08:11,029
Henry a lot of animals here the bite

188
00:08:16,120 --> 00:08:12,349
marks you can see in the seed around

189
00:08:18,189 --> 00:08:16,130
this room a wombat oh really the

190
00:08:21,370 --> 00:08:18,199
sensation is thinking these huge in

191
00:08:22,839 --> 00:08:21,380
services in to see that in the back of a

192
00:08:25,329 --> 00:08:22,849
bag of the cheese

193
00:08:27,249 --> 00:08:25,339
couldn't they loved it but I was Harry

194
00:08:29,829 --> 00:08:27,259
during this possum and the woman who was

195
00:08:32,620 --> 00:08:29,839
on Humphrey said would you come in and

196
00:08:34,629 --> 00:08:32,630
talk about possum and I said sure so I

197
00:08:36,670 --> 00:08:34,639
went in and there was the presenter who

198
00:08:39,699 --> 00:08:36,680
actually then became the presenter on

199
00:08:41,469 --> 00:08:39,709
curiosity show right but I sat down

200
00:08:43,420 --> 00:08:41,479
beside her and she started to talk about

201
00:08:45,430 --> 00:08:43,430
this possum and I I thinking this was

202
00:08:47,829 --> 00:08:45,440
you know the initial talk through yes

203
00:08:49,329 --> 00:08:47,839
talked away about the possum then she

204
00:08:50,439 --> 00:08:49,339
said thank you I went out of the room I

205
00:08:52,960 --> 00:08:50,449
thought I must have got to get our

206
00:08:54,430 --> 00:08:52,970
makeup on and I still sitting mates came

207
00:08:56,170 --> 00:08:54,440
back have you still here I see ya

208
00:08:57,910 --> 00:08:56,180
waiting to do the segment thinking you

209
00:09:01,300 --> 00:08:57,920
know he had to block through sand set

210
00:09:03,819 --> 00:09:01,310
the lights on she's done it go go go get

211
00:09:05,290 --> 00:09:03,829
on it so I left most bemused wondering

212
00:09:07,600 --> 00:09:05,300
what I'd seen and they're aiming the

213
00:09:10,720 --> 00:09:07,610
next day and said we couldn't help

214
00:09:12,249 --> 00:09:10,730
noticing you were extremely relaxed on

215
00:09:14,139 --> 00:09:12,259
camera we're looking for a presenter

216
00:09:15,730 --> 00:09:14,149
would you like to be mine and I at least

217
00:09:19,180 --> 00:09:15,740
had the wit not to say i didn't know i

218
00:09:21,639 --> 00:09:19,190
was on so I said yes I could do that and

219
00:09:23,980 --> 00:09:21,649
then I wasn't so relaxed when I got yes

220
00:09:26,650 --> 00:09:23,990
you do because the well so I really fell

221
00:09:29,769 --> 00:09:26,660
into it by accident right but that that

222
00:09:32,199 --> 00:09:29,779
was a it was terrific am Dean at that

223
00:09:33,519 --> 00:09:32,209
stage was an academic to write and so we

224
00:09:36,280 --> 00:09:33,529
would come in a Wednesday night have

225
00:09:39,009 --> 00:09:36,290
dinner and do the show and so our

226
00:09:41,769 --> 00:09:39,019
lifetime was our daytime activities were

227
00:09:43,540 --> 00:09:41,779
academic and night time was the

228
00:09:44,949 --> 00:09:43,550
curiosity how many shows weekends was

229
00:09:46,689 --> 00:09:44,959
getting ready for your segment how many

230
00:09:49,480 --> 00:09:46,699
shows would you would you do in a

231
00:09:52,569 --> 00:09:49,490
session it varied we probably did in the

232
00:09:54,759 --> 00:09:52,579
end I think it was 49 it vary depending

233
00:09:57,040 --> 00:09:54,769
on the contracts we were brought up by

234
00:09:58,660 --> 00:09:57,050
Germany are they then syndicated that so

235
00:10:00,970 --> 00:09:58,670
we went to 14 countries and they all

236
00:10:02,499 --> 00:10:00,980
wanted different numbers so sometimes

237
00:10:05,470 --> 00:10:02,509
they repeat sometimes are justified

238
00:10:10,150 --> 00:10:05,480
doing extra for a year but i think the

239
00:10:13,360 --> 00:10:10,160
the maximum was from memory 39 norley

240
00:10:16,090 --> 00:10:13,370
split status or 26 or 13 how long would

241
00:10:18,519 --> 00:10:16,100
you be stuck in the studio or da we

242
00:10:20,199 --> 00:10:18,529
would start we would have a working

243
00:10:22,329 --> 00:10:20,209
dinner to get ready for it they can go

244
00:10:24,759 --> 00:10:22,339
in and you'd finish your men to finish I

245
00:10:26,290 --> 00:10:24,769
think by 12 sometimes we didn't yeah and

246
00:10:27,550 --> 00:10:26,300
sometimes you'd then sit down and have

247
00:10:29,740 --> 00:10:27,560
the meeting for the next show because

248
00:10:33,429 --> 00:10:29,750
there no other time well but then you

249
00:10:34,900 --> 00:10:33,439
wake up your own segment and my workshop

250
00:10:35,890 --> 00:10:34,910
out there was the kind of place you'd

251
00:10:39,610 --> 00:10:35,900
prototype everything

252
00:10:41,320 --> 00:10:39,620
and then itself was had Dean and I we

253
00:10:43,270 --> 00:10:41,330
did a lot of making and doing stuff you

254
00:10:45,970 --> 00:10:43,280
did and I i said i didn't think we

255
00:10:48,580 --> 00:10:45,980
should ever put anything on that you

256
00:10:50,230 --> 00:10:48,590
couldn't see working because when i was

257
00:10:51,820 --> 00:10:50,240
a kid and you got these books on how to

258
00:10:53,950 --> 00:10:51,830
build airplanes and things i can

259
00:10:55,810 --> 00:10:53,960
remember struggling doing what i thought

260
00:10:58,180 --> 00:10:55,820
they were telling me how to do and then

261
00:11:01,090 --> 00:10:58,190
you wind up the propeller and let it go

262
00:11:03,010 --> 00:11:01,100
and it seemed like a bloody stuff you

263
00:11:05,080 --> 00:11:03,020
ended up thinking I'm no good at this

264
00:11:07,750 --> 00:11:05,090
it's really undermining of your

265
00:11:08,950 --> 00:11:07,760
abilities now I look at those plans and

266
00:11:11,590 --> 00:11:08,960
they were obviously written by some

267
00:11:13,900 --> 00:11:11,600
drunk on a Friday get off for the

268
00:11:16,000 --> 00:11:13,910
weekend or they could never work never

269
00:11:17,710 --> 00:11:16,010
work at a fit yeah or they didn't tell

270
00:11:19,330 --> 00:11:17,720
you how thick to make things or how

271
00:11:21,310 --> 00:11:19,340
strong the wire should be all those

272
00:11:24,070 --> 00:11:21,320
vital elements so they were really

273
00:11:26,430 --> 00:11:24,080
setting kids up for failure yeah so I

274
00:11:29,650 --> 00:11:26,440
said let's make sure that everything we

275
00:11:31,990 --> 00:11:29,660
tell children how to make we show

276
00:11:33,670 --> 00:11:32,000
working at the end a because they know

277
00:11:36,820 --> 00:11:33,680
it will work and be they'll see the

278
00:11:38,050 --> 00:11:36,830
limitations they make a propeller plane

279
00:11:39,940 --> 00:11:38,060
I think it's going to fly around the

280
00:11:43,060 --> 00:11:39,950
river ouse well it might have 10 seconds

281
00:11:44,530 --> 00:11:43,070
15 years yes and I made a thing called

282
00:11:46,660 --> 00:11:44,540
an ortho copter was actually the first

283
00:11:49,150 --> 00:11:46,670
mechanical device that ever flew under

284
00:11:51,460 --> 00:11:49,160
its own power designed by George Cayley

285
00:11:53,230 --> 00:11:51,470
it's with like a bow and arrow but

286
00:11:58,300 --> 00:11:53,240
instead of the arrow you have a spindle

287
00:12:00,400 --> 00:11:58,310
and it's got mine was made out of the

288
00:12:02,440 --> 00:12:00,410
spindle as a skewer and I put a cork on

289
00:12:05,380 --> 00:12:02,450
each end of it and then you put for

290
00:12:07,300 --> 00:12:05,390
Chuck fella the feathers in twisted so

291
00:12:09,880 --> 00:12:07,310
they're like a propeller but of course

292
00:12:12,130 --> 00:12:09,890
Chuck feathers because it's this action

293
00:12:13,660 --> 00:12:12,140
reaction being equal and opposite the

294
00:12:16,360 --> 00:12:13,670
top part will turn clockwise and I

295
00:12:18,130 --> 00:12:16,370
bottom power will turn the other way but

296
00:12:19,960 --> 00:12:18,140
you've got to get Chuck feathers which I

297
00:12:21,820 --> 00:12:19,970
have got the right camber and Chuck

298
00:12:23,710 --> 00:12:21,830
feathers are either right or left gambit

299
00:12:25,420 --> 00:12:23,720
oh I go to the week they have to

300
00:12:27,730 --> 00:12:25,430
scavenge these feathers and put them in

301
00:12:29,260 --> 00:12:27,740
but this thing you said it going and it

302
00:12:31,420 --> 00:12:29,270
will fly until the end come down again

303
00:12:33,100 --> 00:12:31,430
nothing about three seconds of that yeah

304
00:12:34,660 --> 00:12:33,110
now if you're going to make one of these

305
00:12:36,070 --> 00:12:34,670
you know what expected to be sort of

306
00:12:38,440 --> 00:12:36,080
zooming around the neighborhood secondly

307
00:12:40,300 --> 00:12:38,450
showing how things actually did work in

308
00:12:41,830 --> 00:12:40,310
the end was I think a really important

309
00:12:43,810 --> 00:12:41,840
thing and if we couldn't get it to that

310
00:12:45,430 --> 00:12:43,820
stage with abandon that that would

311
00:12:45,820 --> 00:12:45,440
sometimes be after a weekend of making

312
00:12:49,300 --> 00:12:45,830
proud

313
00:12:51,070 --> 00:12:49,310
yeah you it had civil stages you you

314
00:12:53,230 --> 00:12:51,080
think right I'm going to make a you know

315
00:12:55,630 --> 00:12:53,240
something that flies yes so you'd make

316
00:12:58,270 --> 00:12:55,640
it out of you nothing bolsa springs what

317
00:13:00,490 --> 00:12:58,280
if he had that would make it work then

318
00:13:01,870 --> 00:13:00,500
you had to deconstruct it and make it

319
00:13:04,030 --> 00:13:01,880
out of things a kid might have at home

320
00:13:06,040 --> 00:13:04,040
yes because there's no good being in

321
00:13:07,420 --> 00:13:06,050
Jamestown or somewhere and seeing this

322
00:13:08,950 --> 00:13:07,430
show on a Saturday afternoon when you

323
00:13:11,830 --> 00:13:08,960
haven't got a hobby shop you can't buy

324
00:13:14,950 --> 00:13:11,840
bolster and you heal the money so you'd

325
00:13:18,280 --> 00:13:14,960
find foam meat trays a very good

326
00:13:21,790 --> 00:13:18,290
substitute for boxer and you know

327
00:13:23,530 --> 00:13:21,800
shoo-shoo tins would shoot polished tins

328
00:13:26,260 --> 00:13:23,540
very good instead of a petri dish you

329
00:13:28,300 --> 00:13:26,270
use anything and then some of your

330
00:13:30,520 --> 00:13:28,310
prototype number two was using these

331
00:13:32,230 --> 00:13:30,530
irritate objects and then you say you'll

332
00:13:33,970 --> 00:13:32,240
find these around the Holman and do it

333
00:13:39,460 --> 00:13:33,980
likely i made a hovercraft from my

334
00:13:42,370 --> 00:13:39,470
margarine container sister um pedal pop

335
00:13:43,690 --> 00:13:42,380
sticks and a little electric motor okay

336
00:13:45,670 --> 00:13:43,700
yes right yeah yeah and it went across

337
00:13:47,740 --> 00:13:45,680
the floor is chopped down a friend was

338
00:13:53,110 --> 00:13:47,750
really Oh for our international listens

339
00:13:55,210 --> 00:13:53,120
a chuck is a chicken which I can

340
00:13:57,490 --> 00:13:55,220
hypnotize by the way I'm populist again

341
00:13:59,320 --> 00:13:57,500
and I had some fairly coming up and

342
00:14:01,240 --> 00:13:59,330
abusing me because he has the chick in

343
00:14:03,520 --> 00:14:01,250
front of his children and died I think

344
00:14:06,310 --> 00:14:03,530
was a very old chalk but it didn't come

345
00:14:08,620 --> 00:14:06,320
around again and long as I frontin now

346
00:14:11,680 --> 00:14:08,630
how did you work out the the split

347
00:14:13,420 --> 00:14:11,690
between the lovely things you could make

348
00:14:15,880 --> 00:14:13,430
and the children could make with you and

349
00:14:18,190 --> 00:14:15,890
the puzzles and the games and all the

350
00:14:20,320 --> 00:14:18,200
other things that you would explain on

351
00:14:22,870 --> 00:14:20,330
the show well it was an evolutionary

352
00:14:24,820 --> 00:14:22,880
process but the one that sort of settled

353
00:14:26,620 --> 00:14:24,830
on was that we would each Dean and I

354
00:14:28,930 --> 00:14:26,630
would do a four minute segment which is

355
00:14:31,030 --> 00:14:28,940
the big make and do a two minute segment

356
00:14:33,040 --> 00:14:31,040
and I think there's one or two one

357
00:14:34,540 --> 00:14:33,050
minute see only a four minute segment

358
00:14:37,450 --> 00:14:34,550
for the my content was half an hour

359
00:14:38,710 --> 00:14:37,460
program yeah so I mean you could extend

360
00:14:40,240 --> 00:14:38,720
that if you said look mines going to be

361
00:14:42,670 --> 00:14:40,250
a bit longer like to use my two-minute

362
00:14:44,710 --> 00:14:42,680
in my for you cause but just shows how

363
00:14:46,030 --> 00:14:44,720
the memory plays tricks because I would

364
00:14:47,770 --> 00:14:46,040
have SAT back and said to you now

365
00:14:49,930 --> 00:14:47,780
obviously when you made something that

366
00:14:51,460 --> 00:14:49,940
would taken at least 10 minutes my

367
00:14:52,870 --> 00:14:51,470
memory would tell me that but I'm really

368
00:14:55,360 --> 00:14:52,880
all right I'm that's where the phrase

369
00:15:01,070 --> 00:14:55,370
I've got one here that I prepared it

370
00:15:02,510 --> 00:15:01,080
I entered the lexicon these days of

371
00:15:04,070 --> 00:15:02,520
course you'd probably go to end his

372
00:15:06,260 --> 00:15:04,080
speed up and we were starting to do that

373
00:15:07,940 --> 00:15:06,270
but I mean we started when I started

374
00:15:11,480 --> 00:15:07,950
with the ABC we were using black and

375
00:15:14,000 --> 00:15:11,490
white 16mm film then you went to black

376
00:15:16,190 --> 00:15:14,010
and white television during a video and

377
00:15:17,630 --> 00:15:16,200
then you step I mean we were think in

378
00:15:19,010 --> 00:15:17,640
Adelaide anywhere the first show in

379
00:15:20,840 --> 00:15:19,020
color because we've been making it in

380
00:15:23,390 --> 00:15:20,850
color for quite some time before Kelly

381
00:15:24,320 --> 00:15:23,400
hit the screen in fact I was in color in

382
00:15:27,620 --> 00:15:24,330
black and white there's a wonderful

383
00:15:29,420 --> 00:15:27,630
device you can cause you can make I wish

384
00:15:31,850 --> 00:15:29,430
I could show it here if your listeners

385
00:15:34,100 --> 00:15:31,860
but it's a thing called a binam disc

386
00:15:36,380 --> 00:15:34,110
named after the bloke who discovered it

387
00:15:38,420 --> 00:15:36,390
and you've probably seen it it's a just

388
00:15:41,390 --> 00:15:38,430
a disc which is sort of radiating black

389
00:15:43,730 --> 00:15:41,400
was this on the show yeah well I'm sure

390
00:15:46,160 --> 00:15:43,740
I remembered from the show yeah you may

391
00:15:47,570 --> 00:15:46,170
well have because in fact it's purely

392
00:15:51,040 --> 00:15:47,580
black and white but if you spin this

393
00:15:54,490 --> 00:15:51,050
thing yeah because these radiating flex

394
00:15:56,950 --> 00:15:54,500
sort of stripes and patterns are

395
00:15:59,720 --> 00:15:56,960
imagined and say it's it's a circle with

396
00:16:01,280 --> 00:15:59,730
them about four or five circles within

397
00:16:02,810 --> 00:16:01,290
it that's right it's got these little

398
00:16:05,150 --> 00:16:02,820
black bits and of course the flicker

399
00:16:07,610 --> 00:16:05,160
that they create on your retina will

400
00:16:09,740 --> 00:16:07,620
fire some of your cone cells which are

401
00:16:11,390 --> 00:16:09,750
the ones that see color and you can if

402
00:16:13,700 --> 00:16:11,400
you speed this up and slow it down see

403
00:16:15,500 --> 00:16:13,710
every color in the rainbow the faint but

404
00:16:18,320 --> 00:16:15,510
they work any works on Baker motility

405
00:16:21,650 --> 00:16:18,330
all right so we can actually predict

406
00:16:25,580 --> 00:16:21,660
color sounds like a rock but it would be

407
00:16:28,310 --> 00:16:25,590
for two and ones and then you had a sort

408
00:16:30,530 --> 00:16:28,320
of hello and goodbye yeah which we

409
00:16:32,480 --> 00:16:30,540
usually a puzzle yes and that way we

410
00:16:34,490 --> 00:16:32,490
could get quite a lot of material in but

411
00:16:38,030 --> 00:16:34,500
also keep the variety upside and drag

412
00:16:40,460 --> 00:16:38,040
and we tended to use commercial breaks

413
00:16:42,530 --> 00:16:40,470
we like to subvert them a bit by setting

414
00:16:43,790 --> 00:16:42,540
up a puzzle before them mm-hmm and then

415
00:16:45,860 --> 00:16:43,800
showing you the solution to the puzzle

416
00:16:47,150 --> 00:16:45,870
straight afterwards so you had a bit of

417
00:16:48,530 --> 00:16:47,160
thinking time if you didn't want to

418
00:16:50,330 --> 00:16:48,540
watch the commercial you could muck

419
00:16:51,920 --> 00:16:50,340
around with coins or imagine something

420
00:16:54,050 --> 00:16:51,930
of that kind of Airy good of course the

421
00:16:56,240 --> 00:16:54,060
beauty is now especially for our

422
00:16:57,860 --> 00:16:56,250
international listeners who are

423
00:17:00,500 --> 00:16:57,870
listening to this on their computers or

424
00:17:02,210 --> 00:17:00,510
whatever they can either right now or

425
00:17:05,750 --> 00:17:02,220
after the interview run to the youtube

426
00:17:07,310 --> 00:17:05,760
type in the curiosity show and see what

427
00:17:08,189 --> 00:17:07,320
we're talking about yes there are a few

428
00:17:10,019 --> 00:17:08,199
there

429
00:17:11,970 --> 00:17:10,029
we'll have pirate versions yeah starting

430
00:17:13,860 --> 00:17:11,980
to put him up and Dean and I have been

431
00:17:16,379 --> 00:17:13,870
thinking about releasing some stuff on

432
00:17:18,269 --> 00:17:16,389
DVD I was I think we'd better get at it

433
00:17:21,960 --> 00:17:18,279
because I was going to ask you about

434
00:17:24,659 --> 00:17:21,970
that is the show archive so you can do

435
00:17:26,879 --> 00:17:24,669
that yes a lot of it is and I've got

436
00:17:28,950 --> 00:17:26,889
boxes and boxes of vhss of the shows

437
00:17:31,049 --> 00:17:28,960
because we after a certain time asked if

438
00:17:32,279 --> 00:17:31,059
we could monitor at a time they put a

439
00:17:34,470 --> 00:17:32,289
few things to hear that we didn't like

440
00:17:36,210 --> 00:17:34,480
that hadn't been corrected huh so we

441
00:17:38,159 --> 00:17:36,220
said let's have a VHS of each show and

442
00:17:41,220 --> 00:17:38,169
we could look at the home and say all

443
00:17:43,889 --> 00:17:41,230
this needs correction so i've got i

444
00:17:46,019 --> 00:17:43,899
suppose about 12 years worth of shows

445
00:17:47,970 --> 00:17:46,029
just sitting as VHS boxes did not know

446
00:17:50,850 --> 00:17:47,980
where to put him in this house yes it's

447
00:17:54,000 --> 00:17:50,860
so you're suggesting that the show is

448
00:17:55,980 --> 00:17:54,010
archived but you have it well Dean and I

449
00:17:58,799 --> 00:17:55,990
have an archive of it on VHS not the

450
00:18:02,399 --> 00:17:58,809
network the network has an archive of it

451
00:18:05,820 --> 00:18:02,409
on you know the broad Karoo right tape

452
00:18:07,620 --> 00:18:05,830
yeah but we're rather lost track of that

453
00:18:09,480 --> 00:18:07,630
yeah and there is some trouble at the

454
00:18:11,730 --> 00:18:09,490
moment so we're not not not the nine

455
00:18:14,129 --> 00:18:11,740
with the production house that we made a

456
00:18:15,360 --> 00:18:14,139
program with so he we're trying to

457
00:18:17,970 --> 00:18:15,370
negotiate with them but we're not

458
00:18:20,100 --> 00:18:17,980
getting any responses we have to have to

459
00:18:21,870 --> 00:18:20,110
follow that one because it's something I

460
00:18:24,570 --> 00:18:21,880
found interesting i was watching a

461
00:18:26,820 --> 00:18:24,580
documentary about dads army a little

462
00:18:29,580 --> 00:18:26,830
while ago and they found some missing

463
00:18:31,830 --> 00:18:29,590
episodes because the the BBC would reuse

464
00:18:33,690 --> 00:18:31,840
table you know the story of a lot of

465
00:18:35,340 --> 00:18:33,700
programs have been lost forever because

466
00:18:36,450 --> 00:18:35,350
at the time they were broadcast i

467
00:18:38,100 --> 00:18:36,460
thought well that's it we'll use the

468
00:18:42,509 --> 00:18:38,110
tape again for the blink show something

469
00:18:45,210 --> 00:18:42,519
and it occurs to people now the that's

470
00:18:48,299 --> 00:18:45,220
part of our cultural heritage and I mean

471
00:18:51,029 --> 00:18:48,309
I did I'm not here to unnecessarily

472
00:18:52,919 --> 00:18:51,039
flattered you but the curiosity show is

473
00:18:55,590 --> 00:18:52,929
part of australia's cultural heritage it

474
00:18:57,870 --> 00:18:55,600
really is the worst kind of you the the

475
00:19:01,590 --> 00:18:57,880
very early stuff i think it's gone I do

476
00:19:02,850 --> 00:19:01,600
have one or two very early tapes of it

477
00:19:05,009 --> 00:19:02,860
but you've got to find the machine it

478
00:19:06,600 --> 00:19:05,019
will play them there yeah but that's no

479
00:19:08,730 --> 00:19:06,610
loss to anyone I think though it's not a

480
00:19:10,740 --> 00:19:08,740
show I particularly want to be

481
00:19:13,049 --> 00:19:10,750
associated with for the later one we're

482
00:19:15,659 --> 00:19:13,059
proud of but we have a lot of that hmm

483
00:19:17,789 --> 00:19:15,669
and I think I mean the beauty about

484
00:19:19,409 --> 00:19:17,799
science is its timeless I was just about

485
00:19:20,890 --> 00:19:19,419
to say it doesn't you could release it

486
00:19:22,840 --> 00:19:20,900
now on a

487
00:19:25,420 --> 00:19:22,850
wonderful DVD collection and it would

488
00:19:27,490 --> 00:19:25,430
still be absolutely relevant that marvel

489
00:19:32,410 --> 00:19:27,500
at the funny haircuts and strange shirts

490
00:19:33,820 --> 00:19:32,420
but Dean and I thought you know this is

491
00:19:37,240 --> 00:19:33,830
not a show where you try and project

492
00:19:40,720 --> 00:19:37,250
personality that our role is to be the

493
00:19:43,060 --> 00:19:40,730
medium of the stuff that we do and so

494
00:19:45,970 --> 00:19:43,070
you get the camera off you quite quickly

495
00:19:47,890 --> 00:19:45,980
onto your hands what you're doing and it

496
00:19:49,780 --> 00:19:47,900
was quite gratifying kids become the

497
00:19:51,610 --> 00:19:49,790
street and say hey Dean let's thing you

498
00:19:55,630 --> 00:19:51,620
made a nice all I'm actually Robbie said

499
00:19:57,370 --> 00:19:55,640
no no your D and then they talk about

500
00:19:58,510 --> 00:19:57,380
some segments that seemed like they

501
00:20:00,120 --> 00:19:58,520
couldn't actually remember which of us

502
00:20:02,050 --> 00:20:00,130
had done it and it didn't really matter

503
00:20:04,450 --> 00:20:02,060
because they were interested in what

504
00:20:06,280 --> 00:20:04,460
you'd done yeah and that to me was the

505
00:20:07,840 --> 00:20:06,290
show being success from our Valencia it

506
00:20:10,180 --> 00:20:07,850
was not the sort of show where you try

507
00:20:11,710 --> 00:20:10,190
and you know become an identity or

508
00:20:13,570 --> 00:20:11,720
anything like that and I think that's

509
00:20:16,810 --> 00:20:13,580
why it had a long life where we were on

510
00:20:18,490 --> 00:20:16,820
air for 18 years and that's a long time

511
00:20:20,200 --> 00:20:18,500
for sure but i think it's the material

512
00:20:21,970 --> 00:20:20,210
if you if you try and make it a

513
00:20:26,140 --> 00:20:21,980
personality thing you might have a high

514
00:20:28,180 --> 00:20:26,150
peak but you're over in three so the

515
00:20:29,890 --> 00:20:28,190
material is in is timeless i mean you

516
00:20:32,370 --> 00:20:29,900
can go and take their segments i've done

517
00:20:35,440 --> 00:20:32,380
i've been working for nexus which is a

518
00:20:37,090 --> 00:20:35,450
asia-pacific television program and a

519
00:20:40,270 --> 00:20:37,100
lot of its recycle curiosity shape

520
00:20:43,510 --> 00:20:40,280
because yes color rainbows rephrase

521
00:20:46,810 --> 00:20:43,520
they're all stays in the sleet effective

522
00:20:50,830 --> 00:20:46,820
and very interesting and easy to show

523
00:20:52,450 --> 00:20:50,840
visually I'm it's it's true I remember

524
00:20:56,550 --> 00:20:52,460
very well one segment you did where you

525
00:20:59,710 --> 00:20:56,560
were discussing why some sand is squeaky

526
00:21:01,210 --> 00:20:59,720
dearmond I yesterday yeah in fact I was

527
00:21:04,210 --> 00:21:01,220
about to do that in a show the other day

528
00:21:06,370 --> 00:21:04,220
yeah that in quicksand yes he is walking

529
00:21:07,870 --> 00:21:06,380
along a creek squeak squeak squeak and

530
00:21:10,590 --> 00:21:07,880
you explain the different and I remember

531
00:21:13,240 --> 00:21:10,600
so clearly because of the rock the

532
00:21:15,310 --> 00:21:13,250
Normandy of the rock the grains well its

533
00:21:18,160 --> 00:21:15,320
courts rather chill chill sound when

534
00:21:20,200 --> 00:21:18,170
squeak but if it's ground down courts

535
00:21:21,880 --> 00:21:20,210
they're like little novels yes and that

536
00:21:23,200 --> 00:21:21,890
sad actually came from wilsons

537
00:21:25,270 --> 00:21:23,210
promontory there's a there's a beach

538
00:21:26,650 --> 00:21:25,280
called squeaky beach and I probably was

539
00:21:28,660 --> 00:21:26,660
not allowed to take it but I thought I

540
00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:28,670
can use this and I went away as a small

541
00:21:32,310 --> 00:21:30,410
container because when you when you did

542
00:21:34,470 --> 00:21:32,320
the segment and iron

543
00:21:37,249 --> 00:21:34,480
member thinking this at the time is he

544
00:21:39,450 --> 00:21:37,259
at the veg or is he in the studio

545
00:21:41,100 --> 00:21:39,460
because it was very well done it must

546
00:21:43,799 --> 00:21:41,110
have been with a green screen yeah we

547
00:21:45,659 --> 00:21:43,809
when that came in I mean you know we all

548
00:21:47,070 --> 00:21:45,669
these things were I think was the heyday

549
00:21:48,840 --> 00:21:47,080
of television because you had all these

550
00:21:51,600 --> 00:21:48,850
new technologies you could use them for

551
00:21:53,970 --> 00:21:51,610
the first time an experimental do

552
00:21:56,039 --> 00:21:53,980
wonderful things I still remember one

553
00:21:57,960 --> 00:21:56,049
newsreader once when they're using blue

554
00:22:00,060 --> 00:21:57,970
screens he had blue eyes and I think

555
00:22:06,289 --> 00:22:00,070
that assignment them and you can see

556
00:22:09,539 --> 00:22:06,299
sort of crowds rioting driving

557
00:22:12,090 --> 00:22:09,549
but yes it was a lot of fun so we think

558
00:22:14,220 --> 00:22:12,100
we might term I mean there is this

559
00:22:17,220 --> 00:22:14,230
strange audience that we didn't know

560
00:22:18,840 --> 00:22:17,230
about his is discussing up on YouTube I

561
00:22:20,610 --> 00:22:18,850
would have thought they're too young but

562
00:22:22,740 --> 00:22:20,620
they can remember it I mean did get

563
00:22:25,619 --> 00:22:22,750
syndicated it went to went to

564
00:22:27,149 --> 00:22:25,629
ravensburger hmm and they dubbed it into

565
00:22:29,249 --> 00:22:27,159
German I've somebody saying that on

566
00:22:31,350 --> 00:22:29,259
YouTube life's I've sword in Germany I

567
00:22:33,119 --> 00:22:31,360
used to live in RI in the early 90s and

568
00:22:36,539 --> 00:22:33,129
flipping the channels one day there you

569
00:22:38,700 --> 00:22:36,549
were with dear hello leave a kinder with

570
00:22:40,499 --> 00:22:38,710
is Indian away with each other well it's

571
00:22:42,060 --> 00:22:40,509
very eerie because they're they're very

572
00:22:44,430 --> 00:22:42,070
good at it in Ravens oh yeah and they

573
00:22:48,180 --> 00:22:44,440
get actors with your voice so there's a

574
00:22:49,889 --> 00:22:48,190
German actor who has my voice and I my

575
00:22:52,289 --> 00:22:49,899
German is limited to a little bit of

576
00:22:55,619 --> 00:22:52,299
science gym and so I can't follow what

577
00:22:58,350 --> 00:22:55,629
I'm saying but I know what I did they

578
00:23:01,320 --> 00:22:58,360
look lip sync your intakes of breath if

579
00:23:03,389 --> 00:23:01,330
your life is normally good and it can

580
00:23:05,340 --> 00:23:03,399
lead to trouble because as as Alice key

581
00:23:08,639 --> 00:23:05,350
feebleness key field here with my

582
00:23:10,560 --> 00:23:08,649
students once and a German family came

583
00:23:12,659 --> 00:23:10,570
past very excited and calling out to me

584
00:23:14,419 --> 00:23:12,669
in Germany nothing I'm sorry I don't

585
00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:14,429
speak to you and they suggest you do we

586
00:23:20,789 --> 00:23:18,610
watch you saying yes Podesta no no you

587
00:23:22,830 --> 00:23:20,799
speak they thought I sort of pretending

588
00:23:26,940 --> 00:23:22,840
not to none of them were just not at all

589
00:23:28,740 --> 00:23:26,950
the case and it's got not only Germany

590
00:23:30,690 --> 00:23:28,750
of course but you're saying other

591
00:23:33,389 --> 00:23:30,700
countries yes because then they sent a

592
00:23:36,539 --> 00:23:33,399
witness Switzerland and lots of Europe

593
00:23:39,119 --> 00:23:36,549
is quite tight in the soil overlap of

594
00:23:40,649 --> 00:23:39,129
who can see what I think I'm pirated to

595
00:23:43,160 --> 00:23:40,659
we know it's turned up in a few places

596
00:23:44,900 --> 00:23:43,170
as in copied or

597
00:23:46,760 --> 00:23:44,910
and that was probably and also we're

598
00:23:48,860 --> 00:23:46,770
just knocked off and people would do the

599
00:23:51,620 --> 00:23:48,870
same sort of show with would that I

600
00:23:54,080 --> 00:23:51,630
think your people I think people road

601
00:23:56,900 --> 00:23:54,090
cast it who did when the wind painful I

602
00:23:58,130 --> 00:23:56,910
see right I didn't get copied yeah there

603
00:23:59,810 --> 00:23:58,140
is still some stuff called curiosity

604
00:24:02,030 --> 00:23:59,820
show out there which is nothing to do

605
00:24:03,230 --> 00:24:02,040
with us right right I mean it's a bit of

606
00:24:05,600 --> 00:24:03,240
a double-edged sword but that's in one

607
00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:05,610
way it's marvelous that people do that

608
00:24:10,120 --> 00:24:07,170
because at least it's still getting up

609
00:24:13,130 --> 00:24:10,130
the fun and the message but again it's

610
00:24:15,410 --> 00:24:13,140
well you can't be too precious about it

611
00:24:17,210 --> 00:24:15,420
yeah I mean we did invent quite a lot of

612
00:24:19,160 --> 00:24:17,220
things you see that you think that's

613
00:24:21,350 --> 00:24:19,170
mine but on the other hand you picked up

614
00:24:26,120 --> 00:24:21,360
ideas from everywhere use them and so

615
00:24:28,340 --> 00:24:26,130
you know give and take a bit so yes you

616
00:24:29,870 --> 00:24:28,350
I mean one of the things that that

617
00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:29,880
really took off for me was the mousetrap

618
00:24:33,650 --> 00:24:32,010
racer I don't know if you ever saw that

619
00:24:35,360 --> 00:24:33,660
it's it's it's a wonderful thing for

620
00:24:37,610 --> 00:24:35,370
children you can do a great deal with it

621
00:24:39,710 --> 00:24:37,620
to understanding gears and you know

622
00:24:41,660 --> 00:24:39,720
acceleration and things and it's you get

623
00:24:44,360 --> 00:24:41,670
a mousetrap and you put screweyes

624
00:24:46,370 --> 00:24:44,370
underneath it so you got imaginative for

625
00:24:49,280 --> 00:24:46,380
screweyes wants two at the corners hmm

626
00:24:51,080 --> 00:24:49,290
and there lie in front the back then you

627
00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:51,090
can put an axle through those right and

628
00:24:55,820 --> 00:24:52,890
little wheels up so you've got a

629
00:24:58,430 --> 00:24:55,830
mousetrap now just riding along on four

630
00:25:01,250 --> 00:24:58,440
wheels but if you rig it properly you

631
00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:01,260
can take a thread from the the bar of

632
00:25:05,900 --> 00:25:04,410
the mousetrap and wrap it cockmaster up

633
00:25:08,180 --> 00:25:05,910
then wrap that thread around the bay

634
00:25:10,760 --> 00:25:08,190
axle yes now when you sit the mousetrap

635
00:25:12,590 --> 00:25:10,770
off the bar tries to come forward it

636
00:25:14,450 --> 00:25:12,600
pulls on the thread that unwinds from

637
00:25:17,270 --> 00:25:14,460
the excellent think of me across the

638
00:25:19,790 --> 00:25:17,280
room or you hope it will sometimes it

639
00:25:22,070 --> 00:25:19,800
spins on the spot times the wheels spin

640
00:25:25,970 --> 00:25:22,080
but then you can work out how to make it

641
00:25:27,320 --> 00:25:25,980
work better do you go for distance in

642
00:25:28,940 --> 00:25:27,330
which case you won't get much speed you

643
00:25:31,660 --> 00:25:28,950
gave a speed which case won't get rid of

644
00:25:34,070 --> 00:25:31,670
and I've converted that into the

645
00:25:36,170 --> 00:25:34,080
mousetrap paddlewheeler which will check

646
00:25:40,130 --> 00:25:36,180
across a damn very nicely with cotton

647
00:25:43,370 --> 00:25:40,140
wheel and plastic plastic cut from an

648
00:25:45,760 --> 00:25:43,380
ice cream container lid make the paddles

649
00:25:49,310 --> 00:25:45,770
out of that and chugs along quite well

650
00:25:50,930 --> 00:25:49,320
and I and that got picked up and used in

651
00:25:52,250 --> 00:25:50,940
a National Science Week nationally and

652
00:25:54,140 --> 00:25:52,260
then it you've got used another

653
00:25:56,080 --> 00:25:54,150
television program I thought is my

654
00:25:57,669 --> 00:25:56,090
segment when I thought about it I

655
00:26:00,010 --> 00:25:57,679
she got it out of a magazine the

656
00:26:03,490 --> 00:26:00,020
children that a friend lent lee had been

657
00:26:06,430 --> 00:26:03,500
to America brazo right you know yet yes

658
00:26:08,799 --> 00:26:06,440
your debt really and I think people have

659
00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:08,809
to be expected to adapt your stuff and

660
00:26:13,360 --> 00:26:11,090
forgetting science it's it's everlasting

661
00:26:16,180 --> 00:26:13,370
it in their bodies is a certain amount

662
00:26:17,830 --> 00:26:16,190
of it's flattering if people think that

663
00:26:19,690 --> 00:26:17,840
is so highly of what you've done and

664
00:26:22,830 --> 00:26:19,700
they knock it off or copy it I mean

665
00:26:26,769 --> 00:26:22,840
there is a certain amount of of that ah

666
00:26:28,930 --> 00:26:26,779
yeah I suppose there is it sir they have

667
00:26:30,820 --> 00:26:28,940
some things you I mean I see things now

668
00:26:35,169 --> 00:26:30,830
i go i wish the show we still going i

669
00:26:36,850 --> 00:26:35,179
could use that the bedchamber but you

670
00:26:38,169 --> 00:26:36,860
were doing some television recently

671
00:26:39,820 --> 00:26:38,179
robbed point you're doing the new

672
00:26:42,039 --> 00:26:39,830
inventors a little bit for them yes

673
00:26:45,250 --> 00:26:42,049
things i were asked to do some segments

674
00:26:48,279 --> 00:26:45,260
on that really explaining how everyday

675
00:26:52,330 --> 00:26:48,289
items were cool or not such everyday

676
00:26:54,519 --> 00:26:52,340
items our fridges work and happy you can

677
00:26:56,380 --> 00:26:54,529
crack macadamia nuts without cracking

678
00:26:57,970 --> 00:26:56,390
their nuts and stuff of that mm-hmm

679
00:27:00,700 --> 00:26:57,980
people would write in with questions and

680
00:27:02,230 --> 00:27:00,710
you'd feel them and then they stopped

681
00:27:04,149 --> 00:27:02,240
using us but they didn't stop asking the

682
00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:04,159
question so people just keep writing in

683
00:27:07,690 --> 00:27:05,210
christians wondering why we're not

684
00:27:11,470 --> 00:27:07,700
attending it's innocent unwinding oh

685
00:27:13,389 --> 00:27:11,480
well well we were in there it may come

686
00:27:16,240 --> 00:27:13,399
back again but i think you know finances

687
00:27:18,490 --> 00:27:16,250
got to everybody okay do you probably

688
00:27:20,560 --> 00:27:18,500
get asked this a lot i mean why don't

689
00:27:22,570 --> 00:27:20,570
why don't you and Dean do another series

690
00:27:26,470 --> 00:27:22,580
because there's a lot of room pretty

691
00:27:29,019 --> 00:27:26,480
substandard TV up there well yes it's

692
00:27:30,789 --> 00:27:29,029
hard to know first of all you can't just

693
00:27:33,370 --> 00:27:30,799
say we want to do on and go and do what

694
00:27:36,820 --> 00:27:33,380
you've got interest in it work but

695
00:27:40,810 --> 00:27:36,830
networks are now everyone's worried

696
00:27:42,669 --> 00:27:40,820
about audience is turning off so why

697
00:27:44,799 --> 00:27:42,679
you're going to put money into a show

698
00:27:48,010 --> 00:27:44,809
when you can run a game show where you

699
00:27:50,470 --> 00:27:48,020
can have a mmm quiz show or something is

700
00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:50,480
really cheap which pays for itself and

701
00:27:54,070 --> 00:27:52,010
the audience comes along and he's happy

702
00:27:56,230 --> 00:27:54,080
to participate or reality you can set up

703
00:27:57,820 --> 00:27:56,240
a few prizes that's yet give us but then

704
00:28:01,000 --> 00:27:57,830
again if you rigged it so people have to

705
00:28:02,950 --> 00:28:01,010
ring in you know a particular phone yes

706
00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:02,960
yes I think you make your money out of

707
00:28:08,620 --> 00:28:05,090
that says its cost neutral yes so an

708
00:28:11,020 --> 00:28:08,630
awful lot of television is now you know

709
00:28:14,050 --> 00:28:11,030
I think low end production values but

710
00:28:16,360 --> 00:28:14,060
also low in cost mm-hmm and it's pretty

711
00:28:18,220 --> 00:28:16,370
hard to get anybody who say well yes

712
00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:18,230
we'll run with this because it you know

713
00:28:23,020 --> 00:28:19,850
what science we won't get a big audience

714
00:28:26,260 --> 00:28:23,030
and all those all those things we used

715
00:28:27,970 --> 00:28:26,270
to hear ya so I suspect that the days of

716
00:28:29,920 --> 00:28:27,980
shows like that are over but on the

717
00:28:32,010 --> 00:28:29,930
other hand there's not awful lot of

718
00:28:34,720 --> 00:28:32,020
stuff now on the internet oh yes and

719
00:28:36,310 --> 00:28:34,730
indeed if you like the sort of stuff we

720
00:28:37,630 --> 00:28:36,320
did you can go around the internet and

721
00:28:39,430 --> 00:28:37,640
find all sorts of stuff like it

722
00:28:41,770 --> 00:28:39,440
absolutely and people are doing it for

723
00:28:44,050 --> 00:28:41,780
nothing yeah and I think the days of of

724
00:28:46,300 --> 00:28:44,060
selling your content are probably gone I

725
00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:46,310
grew up in that a read books I did

726
00:28:51,610 --> 00:28:49,490
television and you sold your content now

727
00:28:53,080 --> 00:28:51,620
people are giving the content away free

728
00:28:54,910 --> 00:28:53,090
and they're making their money out of

729
00:28:56,440 --> 00:28:54,920
the advertising so if you've got a good

730
00:28:58,360 --> 00:28:56,450
website that lots of people are gonna

731
00:29:01,090 --> 00:28:58,370
come and watch because of the content

732
00:29:02,110 --> 00:29:01,100
you can sell advertising space mm-hmm so

733
00:29:04,330 --> 00:29:02,120
that's where people and now the

734
00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:04,340
entrepreneurs and Lee in the new age are

735
00:29:08,320 --> 00:29:06,170
making their money so I think all that's

736
00:29:09,580 --> 00:29:08,330
gone i think if you if you try and set

737
00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:09,590
up another show like that for

738
00:29:14,020 --> 00:29:12,410
free-to-air television particularly is

739
00:29:17,800 --> 00:29:14,030
digital's coming in and people have so

740
00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:17,810
much choice yeah i don't think you'd you

741
00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:19,850
do off you will do you know if the show

742
00:29:25,030 --> 00:29:22,490
is still being repeated around the world

743
00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:25,040
at the moment I've heard that it's a

744
00:29:28,510 --> 00:29:26,690
rattled around and cable somewhere but

745
00:29:30,820 --> 00:29:28,520
we've lost track of any of anybody doing

746
00:29:37,850 --> 00:29:30,830
it properly I should know but we should

747
00:29:43,170 --> 00:29:40,950
coming up after the break where dr.

748
00:29:45,990 --> 00:29:43,180
Richie and I go on our search for hot

749
00:29:48,660 --> 00:29:46,000
salami Rob Morrison talks about some of

750
00:30:03,769 --> 00:29:48,670
his concerns with science reporting in

751
00:30:09,779 --> 00:30:06,960
hi I'm Theo Clark hosts can produce of

752
00:30:12,029 --> 00:30:09,789
the podcast hunting humbug 101 each week

753
00:30:13,950 --> 00:30:12,039
I'm joined by my father Jeff Clark and

754
00:30:16,049 --> 00:30:13,960
we discuss a particular logical fallacy

755
00:30:17,549 --> 00:30:16,059
with real-life examples of fallacies

756
00:30:19,950 --> 00:30:17,559
from pseudo science science

757
00:30:23,279 --> 00:30:19,960
misconceptions politics philosophy and

758
00:30:25,739 --> 00:30:23,289
the media hunting humbug 101 is a

759
00:30:27,810 --> 00:30:25,749
companion podcast to our book humbug the

760
00:30:30,269 --> 00:30:27,820
skeptics field guide to spotting

761
00:30:32,729 --> 00:30:30,279
fallacies in thinking you can download a

762
00:30:34,769 --> 00:30:32,739
mess and subscribe to our podcast obtain

763
00:30:36,989 --> 00:30:34,779
a free copy of the ebook version of our

764
00:30:39,210 --> 00:30:36,999
book humbug and see many more real

765
00:30:46,289 --> 00:30:39,220
examples of fallacious reasoning at our

766
00:30:56,310 --> 00:30:46,299
website WWE tix field guide dot net now

767
00:31:01,210 --> 00:30:59,200
Rachel can you believe it or the central

768
00:31:03,130 --> 00:31:01,220
markets in Emily yes we are is not

769
00:31:05,530 --> 00:31:03,140
incredible people everywhere it's

770
00:31:07,180 --> 00:31:05,540
beautiful yet it is amazing market I

771
00:31:10,390 --> 00:31:07,190
think it's one of the best as I said in

772
00:31:13,090 --> 00:31:10,400
Australia if not the world may be very

773
00:31:16,140 --> 00:31:13,100
famous and it's just it's wonderful

774
00:31:19,180 --> 00:31:16,150
they're looking lovely fruit and fresh

775
00:31:22,630 --> 00:31:19,190
corn come in the corn in front of it

776
00:31:24,580 --> 00:31:22,640
looks good like I do now we're here for

777
00:31:26,560 --> 00:31:24,590
a very special reason we're going to the

778
00:31:28,930 --> 00:31:26,570
Met workshop kid sweet haha we're gonna

779
00:31:30,640 --> 00:31:28,940
buy bum burners and fire fire starters

780
00:31:32,110 --> 00:31:30,650
you do you want to explain to the

781
00:31:35,170 --> 00:31:32,120
listeners what fire starters and bomb

782
00:31:37,870 --> 00:31:35,180
vendors original imagine a incredibly

783
00:31:41,680 --> 00:31:37,880
delicious salami the flavor is just to

784
00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:41,690
die for that's a bum burn now imagine

785
00:31:48,610 --> 00:31:45,010
that same thing encased in Chile's

786
00:31:52,330 --> 00:31:48,620
that's a fire starter wrapped in chili

787
00:31:54,190 --> 00:31:52,340
flavor and chili flakes yep so let's not

788
00:31:56,200 --> 00:31:54,200
delay Rachel alright let's go to the

789
00:31:58,820 --> 00:31:56,210
Midwest shop I think it's probably down

790
00:32:04,430 --> 00:32:01,560
here we are we found it the Midwest shop

791
00:32:06,380 --> 00:32:04,440
I can say I look look

792
00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:06,390
can you believe I gotta take a picture

793
00:32:14,360 --> 00:32:11,130
of that I'm just taking a picture

794
00:32:21,350 --> 00:32:14,370
listeners of the the fire starters if

795
00:32:25,430 --> 00:32:21,360
you go to our website www skeptics MTV

796
00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:25,440
and click the pictures of liquor big

797
00:32:30,350 --> 00:32:28,170
juice you can see this incredible side I

798
00:32:34,130 --> 00:32:30,360
think we should buy some let's buy some

799
00:32:37,580 --> 00:32:34,140
Richard oh we couldn't help ourselves

800
00:32:39,710 --> 00:32:37,590
good we bought thirty dollars worth of

801
00:32:41,780 --> 00:32:39,720
fire starters and we already had some

802
00:32:44,930 --> 00:32:41,790
didn't even hear we did and now we can't

803
00:32:47,750 --> 00:32:44,940
really speak for us the chili is wrong

804
00:32:49,460 --> 00:32:47,760
so the taster hmm I mean I mean the

805
00:32:51,650 --> 00:32:49,470
chili gives you a big whack but that

806
00:32:53,990 --> 00:32:51,660
beautiful flavor it is amazing wasn't it

807
00:32:57,380 --> 00:32:54,000
this is a free ad for the network shop

808
00:33:03,350 --> 00:32:57,390
I'm not sure google met worst networks

809
00:33:07,040 --> 00:33:03,360
job central market still 22 la yum so

810
00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:07,050
how much money did we spend today on net

811
00:33:13,820 --> 00:33:11,370
where's little bit thirty dollars on

812
00:33:15,280 --> 00:33:13,830
fire starters this morning yeah and then

813
00:33:17,920 --> 00:33:15,290
we went away

814
00:33:21,460 --> 00:33:17,930
thank you who went away I thought about

815
00:33:25,150 --> 00:33:21,470
it yeah we came back and spend eight

816
00:33:26,740 --> 00:33:25,160
more dollars on 61 bonus yes so they've

817
00:33:28,030 --> 00:33:26,750
done quite well out of us today they

818
00:33:29,710 --> 00:33:28,040
have you make the games to discount

819
00:33:30,790 --> 00:33:29,720
Richard because with the second time we

820
00:33:32,530 --> 00:33:30,800
went back we should have had eleven

821
00:33:34,540 --> 00:33:32,540
dollars for the bomb bela's are very

822
00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:34,550
good well I'm sure they hadn't don't get

823
00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:35,930
many people coming up in mind thirty

824
00:33:40,480 --> 00:33:38,930
dollars worth of but they did say to us

825
00:33:43,500 --> 00:33:40,490
when we went back to the bum burners

826
00:33:46,300 --> 00:33:43,510
have you already finished those fires

827
00:33:48,520 --> 00:33:46,310
there's only been a few hours of new

828
00:33:50,350 --> 00:33:48,530
hours have elapsed since with mainly no

829
00:33:52,570 --> 00:33:50,360
now listen is probably wondering what

830
00:33:55,570 --> 00:33:52,580
this has to do with skepticism um

831
00:34:03,299 --> 00:33:55,580
nothing nothing it's just good fun it's

832
00:34:07,780 --> 00:34:05,680
the Rob you were going to tell us how

833
00:34:09,730 --> 00:34:07,790
you managed to get hopefully be bear the

834
00:34:14,740 --> 00:34:09,740
bear who doesn't normally speak to speak

835
00:34:16,450 --> 00:34:14,750
oh sorry I didn't mean to bother we had

836
00:34:18,430 --> 00:34:16,460
an outside broadcast you didn't get the

837
00:34:21,070 --> 00:34:18,440
van very often but sometimes it was free

838
00:34:22,359 --> 00:34:21,080
and let's he go and do it this is back

839
00:34:24,460 --> 00:34:22,369
in the very early days when he had

840
00:34:26,409 --> 00:34:24,470
Humphrey in the show so I said right

841
00:34:28,330 --> 00:34:26,419
we'll we'll take it out to my laboratory

842
00:34:31,149 --> 00:34:28,340
and we'll set that up during a day and

843
00:34:34,540 --> 00:34:31,159
we'll record in at night so we did that

844
00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:34,550
a lot of technical stuff of getting the

845
00:34:39,940 --> 00:34:37,490
three phasing and I dressed it with

846
00:34:41,889 --> 00:34:39,950
various interesting scientific gizmos

847
00:34:43,780 --> 00:34:41,899
including a Van de Graaff generator

848
00:34:45,250 --> 00:34:43,790
which has just been repaired and that's

849
00:34:47,590 --> 00:34:45,260
the one you see in science shows where

850
00:34:48,700 --> 00:34:47,600
children stand on a box and touch it and

851
00:34:52,330 --> 00:34:48,710
all the hair stands on him because

852
00:34:55,629 --> 00:34:52,340
generates a vast voltage and this had

853
00:34:57,310 --> 00:34:55,639
been going for some time and it was a

854
00:34:58,810 --> 00:34:57,320
nice dry night and the thing that just

855
00:35:02,680 --> 00:34:58,820
been overhauled so it was in good Nick

856
00:35:04,390 --> 00:35:02,690
and we had the Sigma dies I was doing

857
00:35:06,940 --> 00:35:04,400
something with insects I think and there

858
00:35:08,740 --> 00:35:06,950
was this Richard beer behind me I knew

859
00:35:10,810 --> 00:35:08,750
used behind me to stick you lading and

860
00:35:12,490 --> 00:35:10,820
pointing at things and trying to attract

861
00:35:15,340 --> 00:35:12,500
his three year olds not to look at my

862
00:35:16,900 --> 00:35:15,350
segment but at him and I out of the

863
00:35:19,140 --> 00:35:16,910
corner of my eye could see him pointing

864
00:35:21,550 --> 00:35:19,150
these gizmos including the vandegraaff

865
00:35:23,530 --> 00:35:21,560
pointing quite close to the van I

866
00:35:26,950 --> 00:35:23,540
thought I won't say anything we'll see

867
00:35:28,870 --> 00:35:26,960
what happens here and hug here this

868
00:35:30,430 --> 00:35:28,880
little flurry of pony going on but I me

869
00:35:33,250 --> 00:35:30,440
and then there's suddenly there's a

870
00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:33,260
crack like a rifle shot and that's just

871
00:35:38,470 --> 00:35:36,170
turn around so I can blue fire about a

872
00:35:40,450 --> 00:35:38,480
meter long left from the vandegraaff

873
00:35:43,570 --> 00:35:40,460
into the outstretched digit of the

874
00:35:45,370 --> 00:35:43,580
unhappy beer you did a quick 316 from

875
00:35:49,570 --> 00:35:45,380
the depths of this woolly costume he

876
00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:49,580
just hid huh I think it's the only thing

877
00:35:57,090 --> 00:35:52,010
ever he has ever said on television did

878
00:35:59,500 --> 00:35:57,100
that go to air it did faintly faintly

879
00:36:02,260 --> 00:35:59,510
wish that was on YouTube would love to

880
00:36:04,359 --> 00:36:02,270
find yes I wish I had a copy of that

881
00:36:07,000 --> 00:36:04,369
program but he was then very subdued and

882
00:36:09,580 --> 00:36:07,010
gesticulate anymore didn't point of a

883
00:36:13,990 --> 00:36:09,590
nothing and I was able to finish my

884
00:36:15,970 --> 00:36:14,000
segment unmolested can you tell us Rob

885
00:36:17,090 --> 00:36:15,980
about the live shows that you do now you

886
00:36:19,280 --> 00:36:17,100
did one for this guy

887
00:36:21,110 --> 00:36:19,290
it's convention oh yeah late last year

888
00:36:23,030 --> 00:36:21,120
which was very successful and a great

889
00:36:26,300 --> 00:36:23,040
great fun as well well that was a sort

890
00:36:28,340 --> 00:36:26,310
of spin-off of one that we didn't and I

891
00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:28,350
do for science of life Santa life is a

892
00:36:33,200 --> 00:36:30,810
very big thing we have in national

893
00:36:37,130 --> 00:36:33,210
science we can add late and it's funded

894
00:36:39,200 --> 00:36:37,140
by the National Science Week in Canberra

895
00:36:40,550 --> 00:36:39,210
and they give grants to all states and

896
00:36:42,110 --> 00:36:40,560
they do it very well I think they try

897
00:36:44,390 --> 00:36:42,120
and get the maximum coverage of the

898
00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:44,400
maximum fairness but this is our premier

899
00:36:48,170 --> 00:36:46,410
event in South Australia and they fund

900
00:36:50,600 --> 00:36:48,180
that so we were able to put on this huge

901
00:36:52,100 --> 00:36:50,610
kind of it was two days and now three

902
00:36:55,250 --> 00:36:52,110
days because we make one day just for

903
00:36:58,100 --> 00:36:55,260
school but as focuses on science and

904
00:36:59,540 --> 00:36:58,110
technology and science as a career and

905
00:37:02,480 --> 00:36:59,550
the school space it's all about the

906
00:37:03,740 --> 00:37:02,490
science you can yeah all there but of

907
00:37:05,690 --> 00:37:03,750
course they need to keep people

908
00:37:08,240 --> 00:37:05,700
entertained so they have science shows

909
00:37:12,050 --> 00:37:08,250
and they will deal Dean and myself out

910
00:37:13,640 --> 00:37:12,060
the old curiosity gesture now which of

911
00:37:16,820 --> 00:37:13,650
course is half is a lot of what we did

912
00:37:18,890 --> 00:37:16,830
was was tabletop and finger tight you

913
00:37:21,350 --> 00:37:18,900
know it's really close up you can do

914
00:37:25,360 --> 00:37:21,360
that for a crowd so we tend to rely upon

915
00:37:30,290 --> 00:37:25,370
the usual happy things of explosions of

916
00:37:32,840 --> 00:37:30,300
rising into the sky and so weird n 1 i

917
00:37:34,790 --> 00:37:32,850
think on demon i wrote for books on

918
00:37:36,260 --> 00:37:34,800
earth fire air and water wednesday which

919
00:37:38,600 --> 00:37:36,270
are all some projects she could do

920
00:37:42,610 --> 00:37:38,610
around it so we've modified that into a

921
00:37:46,490 --> 00:37:42,620
stage show and we modified as need

922
00:37:48,650 --> 00:37:46,500
demand it was very very well received at

923
00:37:50,630 --> 00:37:48,660
the convention when he did it down Isis

924
00:37:53,030 --> 00:37:50,640
and now and I thought it wasn't

925
00:37:56,800 --> 00:37:53,040
particularly nice for the demonstration

926
00:37:58,880 --> 00:37:56,810
of an earthquake all right very clever

927
00:38:00,500 --> 00:37:58,890
cables and everything that was that was

928
00:38:02,600 --> 00:38:00,510
one but you don't hope for some children

929
00:38:05,450 --> 00:38:02,610
you don't need many children in an

930
00:38:07,700 --> 00:38:05,460
audience and then the whole audience has

931
00:38:09,620 --> 00:38:07,710
a kind of a curious ten-year-olds

932
00:38:12,320 --> 00:38:09,630
interest in the show if you haven't got

933
00:38:13,610 --> 00:38:12,330
one you have to ask adults to pretend to

934
00:38:15,380 --> 00:38:13,620
be children right it doesn't work so

935
00:38:18,290 --> 00:38:15,390
well but if there's you know one or two

936
00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:18,300
they all think are you know we we

937
00:38:22,100 --> 00:38:20,010
watching this through his eyes or here I

938
00:38:23,570 --> 00:38:22,110
yes yeah that works quite well so that's

939
00:38:27,890 --> 00:38:23,580
it you had a couple there for us that

940
00:38:29,630 --> 00:38:27,900
was good well a couple of years ago

941
00:38:31,309 --> 00:38:29,640
Robbie won the

942
00:38:33,529 --> 00:38:31,319
Australian skeptics prize for critical

943
00:38:38,390 --> 00:38:33,539
thinking and wonder if you can tell us

944
00:38:41,990 --> 00:38:38,400
about that what was your entry about it

945
00:38:47,210 --> 00:38:42,000
was about it was a bit of a mayor Cooper

946
00:38:50,210 --> 00:38:47,220
in some ways but I from a curiosity sho

947
00:38:51,799 --> 00:38:50,220
i keep doing academic staff and then

948
00:38:55,549 --> 00:38:51,809
Channel 10 News wanted the Science

949
00:38:56,900 --> 00:38:55,559
reporter to do features and again I tell

950
00:38:59,480 --> 00:38:56,910
students who want to get into television

951
00:39:01,160 --> 00:38:59,490
don't neglect science because o it never

952
00:39:02,980 --> 00:39:01,170
trained as a Jew know my father was a

953
00:39:06,859 --> 00:39:02,990
gla but I've never trained as a Jenner

954
00:39:09,920 --> 00:39:06,869
but for ten it was harder to find a Juno

955
00:39:12,740 --> 00:39:09,930
who could do science than it was to find

956
00:39:14,779 --> 00:39:12,750
a scientist who'd done television and I

957
00:39:16,549 --> 00:39:14,789
was the latter so I went into the

958
00:39:19,279 --> 00:39:16,559
newsroom and I spent ten years they just

959
00:39:21,349 --> 00:39:19,289
doing a segment a week a feature a week

960
00:39:22,910 --> 00:39:21,359
on science and technology and

961
00:39:29,390 --> 00:39:22,920
environment absolutely loved it was a

962
00:39:32,240 --> 00:39:29,400
great place to work and after that are

963
00:39:35,660 --> 00:39:32,250
then I'd lift the university but by then

964
00:39:39,289 --> 00:39:35,670
and was too young to retire I think I'll

965
00:39:41,329 --> 00:39:39,299
always be to you then I like working but

966
00:39:43,370 --> 00:39:41,339
a job came up at our university in the

967
00:39:46,220 --> 00:39:43,380
media unit for science journalist and I

968
00:39:48,920 --> 00:39:46,230
thought well I forgot that and I got it

969
00:39:51,319 --> 00:39:48,930
was a two-year contract the brief was to

970
00:39:53,660 --> 00:39:51,329
get the university's research into the

971
00:39:55,670 --> 00:39:53,670
international media which sounds

972
00:39:58,460 --> 00:39:55,680
horrendous but is actually easy to do

973
00:40:00,319 --> 00:39:58,470
than getting into the local media yeah

974
00:40:02,180 --> 00:40:00,329
you have a parochial bottleneck

975
00:40:05,089 --> 00:40:02,190
sometimes from here there are mechanisms

976
00:40:07,039 --> 00:40:05,099
he can use which expose your story to

977
00:40:09,650 --> 00:40:07,049
the world and somebody says I like that

978
00:40:11,299 --> 00:40:09,660
and they'll grab it particularly

979
00:40:14,299 --> 00:40:11,309
freelancers who have to go scouting the

980
00:40:18,109 --> 00:40:14,309
stories that no one else is on T so that

981
00:40:20,450 --> 00:40:18,119
was a very happy time and I grew

982
00:40:23,359 --> 00:40:20,460
interested then in the mechanisms of

983
00:40:25,039 --> 00:40:23,369
getting a story I mean for 10 years I've

984
00:40:26,990 --> 00:40:25,049
been in the news room and press releases

985
00:40:30,170 --> 00:40:27,000
had come to me and I've had people

986
00:40:32,180 --> 00:40:30,180
saying use my story now I was on the

987
00:40:34,760 --> 00:40:32,190
other side the dark side because yeah

988
00:40:37,520 --> 00:40:34,770
right here's a story you ought to use

989
00:40:39,440 --> 00:40:37,530
instead of anybody else's and you start

990
00:40:42,530 --> 00:40:39,450
to get aware of other people doing it

991
00:40:44,599 --> 00:40:42,540
and the tricks that they're using and a

992
00:40:46,940 --> 00:40:44,609
lot of those are very effective in the

993
00:40:49,339 --> 00:40:46,950
short term but I think of the long term

994
00:40:51,530 --> 00:40:49,349
they lose their power but by then

995
00:40:54,770 --> 00:40:51,540
they've damaged science r you badly what

996
00:40:57,230 --> 00:40:54,780
do I mean well I recently looked up

997
00:41:00,500 --> 00:40:57,240
Eureka let the biggest probably the

998
00:41:02,960 --> 00:41:00,510
biggest of the most effective science

999
00:41:08,150 --> 00:41:02,970
news release website in the world and

1000
00:41:10,640 --> 00:41:08,160
it's very good but I looked up well I

1001
00:41:13,099 --> 00:41:10,650
think five thousand press releases I

1002
00:41:14,990 --> 00:41:13,109
looked up on it of which two thousand

1003
00:41:20,510 --> 00:41:15,000
two hundred and something had break

1004
00:41:23,870 --> 00:41:20,520
through about half half that had a

1005
00:41:27,349 --> 00:41:23,880
cutting edge yeah about as many had you

1006
00:41:30,020 --> 00:41:27,359
know leading-edge all know the sister

1007
00:41:32,270 --> 00:41:30,030
it's the kind of degraded currency of

1008
00:41:35,000 --> 00:41:32,280
trying to present science as really

1009
00:41:37,609 --> 00:41:35,010
important yeah so the sloppy journalists

1010
00:41:39,230 --> 00:41:37,619
or the sloppy PR merchant who says

1011
00:41:41,120 --> 00:41:39,240
crikey I've got to get something in the

1012
00:41:43,609 --> 00:41:41,130
media how do I make it interesting

1013
00:41:45,740 --> 00:41:43,619
enough for them to want I call it break

1014
00:41:48,680 --> 00:41:45,750
through cutting-edge leading-edge world

1015
00:41:50,510 --> 00:41:48,690
first and so every story that comes out

1016
00:41:52,460 --> 00:41:50,520
is described as a break for you and it

1017
00:41:54,500 --> 00:41:52,470
could be just commonplace science the

1018
00:41:57,050 --> 00:41:54,510
sort thing gets done every day but that

1019
00:41:58,490 --> 00:41:57,060
gets called a breakthrough then what

1020
00:42:00,530 --> 00:41:58,500
happens when everything's our breaks for

1021
00:42:03,920 --> 00:42:00,540
you to the real breakthroughs you know

1022
00:42:08,000 --> 00:42:03,930
that yeah they're sort of lost in this

1023
00:42:14,300 --> 00:42:08,010
sea of hyperbole so I started to get

1024
00:42:16,069 --> 00:42:14,310
worried about that I looked at there are

1025
00:42:18,319 --> 00:42:16,079
a number of number of ways people hype

1026
00:42:19,990 --> 00:42:18,329
these science stories one is to not talk

1027
00:42:22,940 --> 00:42:20,000
about what has been discovered and

1028
00:42:25,400 --> 00:42:22,950
published in a refereed journal which

1029
00:42:27,500 --> 00:42:25,410
gives us some credibility but to talk

1030
00:42:30,200 --> 00:42:27,510
about sunset who's doing work on this

1031
00:42:31,880 --> 00:42:30,210
which may lead to and then off you go

1032
00:42:34,370 --> 00:42:31,890
you can say whatever you like right

1033
00:42:36,950 --> 00:42:34,380
we're even getting stories now on Sunday

1034
00:42:39,859 --> 00:42:36,960
who's won a prestigious grant to begin

1035
00:42:42,470 --> 00:42:39,869
work on X which if he's successful might

1036
00:42:45,030 --> 00:42:42,480
lead to Y which could cure as it yeah

1037
00:42:47,220 --> 00:42:45,040
and the story is about curing Zin

1038
00:42:49,410 --> 00:42:47,230
so that if you look at a lot of stories

1039
00:42:53,430 --> 00:42:49,420
now they're not about honest research

1040
00:42:54,870 --> 00:42:53,440
well done and demonstrably well done

1041
00:42:57,990 --> 00:42:54,880
because there are the refereed journals

1042
00:43:00,690 --> 00:42:58,000
they're about work that might lead to

1043
00:43:03,210 --> 00:43:00,700
this might cure that and the stem cell

1044
00:43:06,630 --> 00:43:03,220
when I got that award I did an analysis

1045
00:43:09,060 --> 00:43:06,640
of stem cell publication and the way

1046
00:43:13,290 --> 00:43:09,070
they were being hyped and Eureka load

1047
00:43:15,150 --> 00:43:13,300
again ten stories three of them were

1048
00:43:16,980 --> 00:43:15,160
factual stories the other seven were all

1049
00:43:19,800 --> 00:43:16,990
this hyperbolic stuff about what stem

1050
00:43:21,030 --> 00:43:19,810
cells would then one day cute cure now

1051
00:43:23,310 --> 00:43:21,040
if you go to people in the street you

1052
00:43:27,360 --> 00:43:23,320
see what a stem cell is d they'll tell

1053
00:43:29,130 --> 00:43:27,370
you quite convinced that all these

1054
00:43:32,730 --> 00:43:29,140
things that they are cured now they're

1055
00:43:34,080 --> 00:43:32,740
starting to in some cases but in many

1056
00:43:37,500 --> 00:43:34,090
cases they're still years away from

1057
00:43:39,950 --> 00:43:37,510
clinical trials so the hyperbole gets

1058
00:43:42,090 --> 00:43:39,960
established in the mind as fact and then

1059
00:43:45,330 --> 00:43:42,100
you know doesn't come up with the goods

1060
00:43:46,380 --> 00:43:45,340
I mean biotechnology was where 20 years

1061
00:43:48,650 --> 00:43:46,390
ago if you're almost going to make

1062
00:43:50,910 --> 00:43:48,660
millions that's right there hardly any

1063
00:43:53,190 --> 00:43:50,920
biotechnology companies doing will of

1064
00:43:54,960 --> 00:43:53,200
the stock exchange hardly any a lot of

1065
00:43:56,820 --> 00:43:54,970
them are faltering a great many can't

1066
00:43:59,130 --> 00:43:56,830
get any money to develop the good

1067
00:44:00,840 --> 00:43:59,140
patents that they of God a lot of people

1068
00:44:03,870 --> 00:44:00,850
have lost money that made money on the

1069
00:44:06,780 --> 00:44:03,880
stock exchange so the hyperbole is read

1070
00:44:09,690 --> 00:44:06,790
amegy to science because it's it

1071
00:44:12,690 --> 00:44:09,700
degrades the currency and I think it's

1072
00:44:14,160 --> 00:44:12,700
happening more and more because we used

1073
00:44:15,480 --> 00:44:14,170
to just get our money for the government

1074
00:44:18,270 --> 00:44:15,490
or we could research more or less what

1075
00:44:19,770 --> 00:44:18,280
we liked in universities now there's

1076
00:44:21,630 --> 00:44:19,780
less of that money you've got to go and

1077
00:44:23,130 --> 00:44:21,640
find your money people are only going to

1078
00:44:25,770 --> 00:44:23,140
pay for stuff which is going to have a

1079
00:44:27,570 --> 00:44:25,780
payoff at the end a lot of it's coming

1080
00:44:30,330 --> 00:44:27,580
out of corporate bodies they've got

1081
00:44:32,250 --> 00:44:30,340
media units in them Pierre units they've

1082
00:44:34,080 --> 00:44:32,260
got to be seen to be active they've got

1083
00:44:35,430 --> 00:44:34,090
to get the name in the media so you've

1084
00:44:37,740 --> 00:44:35,440
got middle managers you don't give a

1085
00:44:39,930 --> 00:44:37,750
stuff about the science but they're

1086
00:44:41,790 --> 00:44:39,940
really keen on getting the company's

1087
00:44:44,100 --> 00:44:41,800
name into the media and they do it any

1088
00:44:46,620 --> 00:44:44,110
way they can hmm so you take something

1089
00:44:50,690 --> 00:44:46,630
which is not worthy of a story call it a

1090
00:44:53,220 --> 00:44:50,700
breakthrough cutting-edge science yeah

1091
00:44:54,930 --> 00:44:53,230
imagine where it might one day go and

1092
00:44:57,300 --> 00:44:54,940
try and get your story out of there but

1093
00:44:58,589 --> 00:44:57,310
all the good stuff is then suddenly

1094
00:45:00,150 --> 00:44:58,599
dropping off off

1095
00:45:02,130 --> 00:45:00,160
the edge and there's a measure that

1096
00:45:03,569 --> 00:45:02,140
tells you how much that's happening if

1097
00:45:06,479 --> 00:45:03,579
you look at Eureka Lydia rates its

1098
00:45:08,430 --> 00:45:06,489
stories with relevance and in fact I've

1099
00:45:10,650 --> 00:45:08,440
just been doing some media lectures to

1100
00:45:12,509 --> 00:45:10,660
biotechnology students at one of our

1101
00:45:14,789 --> 00:45:12,519
universities and their task is to go

1102
00:45:17,190 --> 00:45:14,799
away to look at these stories look at

1103
00:45:19,140 --> 00:45:17,200
the relevance factor and evaluate the

1104
00:45:21,239 --> 00:45:19,150
news value of the story against the

1105
00:45:23,839 --> 00:45:21,249
science value because those two are now

1106
00:45:27,870 --> 00:45:23,849
diverging right and you can make a story

1107
00:45:29,249 --> 00:45:27,880
very effective in terms of news but when

1108
00:45:31,289 --> 00:45:29,259
you look at the science and it is crappy

1109
00:45:33,359 --> 00:45:31,299
yeah yeah and something which is really

1110
00:45:35,700 --> 00:45:33,369
strong scientifically may not be deemed

1111
00:45:38,190 --> 00:45:35,710
to be newsworthy and that's the danger

1112
00:45:40,019 --> 00:45:38,200
that at the time we tried to improve the

1113
00:45:43,259 --> 00:45:40,029
science the media there are these forces

1114
00:45:45,900 --> 00:45:43,269
which are really pushing one way for the

1115
00:45:48,180 --> 00:45:45,910
media impact another way for the

1116
00:45:50,519 --> 00:45:48,190
scientific validity so that's what your

1117
00:45:52,440 --> 00:45:50,529
price was about years we're sorry about

1118
00:45:55,410 --> 00:45:52,450
this yes it was about the problem and it

1119
00:45:57,120 --> 00:45:55,420
was about the analysis of it and thus or

1120
00:45:59,190 --> 00:45:57,130
research if you can call it that on how

1121
00:46:01,969 --> 00:45:59,200
I've done it and australasian science

1122
00:46:04,410 --> 00:46:01,979
picked it up and ran with it too and

1123
00:46:05,999 --> 00:46:04,420
there were I mean they get deadliest

1124
00:46:07,469 --> 00:46:06,009
with their stuff so they were quite

1125
00:46:09,499 --> 00:46:07,479
pleased to find somebody yeah yeah in

1126
00:46:12,420 --> 00:46:09,509
the case well what's your opinion about

1127
00:46:14,549 --> 00:46:12,430
scientific reporting in the sort of

1128
00:46:17,759 --> 00:46:14,559
mainstream media do you think that

1129
00:46:19,709 --> 00:46:17,769
there's a sort of it's done well or it's

1130
00:46:22,469 --> 00:46:19,719
done really badly because quite often it

1131
00:46:24,150 --> 00:46:22,479
seems that sort of not non-specialist

1132
00:46:25,890 --> 00:46:24,160
journalists tend to report this kind of

1133
00:46:27,989 --> 00:46:25,900
stuff and they maybe don't have a

1134
00:46:29,940 --> 00:46:27,999
scientific education in order to report

1135
00:46:32,670 --> 00:46:29,950
it very well do you think that's a

1136
00:46:34,859 --> 00:46:32,680
problem as well there's no clear answer

1137
00:46:38,370 --> 00:46:34,869
to that but there several bits I think

1138
00:46:40,380 --> 00:46:38,380
which are all relevant and all important

1139
00:46:42,209 --> 00:46:40,390
perhaps five years ago I would have been

1140
00:46:45,180 --> 00:46:42,219
fairly pessimistic about the state of it

1141
00:46:47,579 --> 00:46:45,190
since then for three years we've had the

1142
00:46:49,079 --> 00:46:47,589
Australian science media center and I

1143
00:46:52,559 --> 00:46:49,089
have to declare an interest on the board

1144
00:46:54,180 --> 00:46:52,569
of there but it was started it was

1145
00:46:55,769 --> 00:46:54,190
modeled on the one that Baroness Susan

1146
00:46:58,079 --> 00:46:55,779
Greenfield started in Britain which is

1147
00:46:59,489 --> 00:46:58,089
the science media said and she came out

1148
00:47:03,089 --> 00:46:59,499
to Adelaide we have a program called

1149
00:47:06,299 --> 00:47:03,099
thinkers in residence where people in a

1150
00:47:08,099 --> 00:47:06,309
notable in some field get invited to add

1151
00:47:10,859 --> 00:47:08,109
later they spend some time and they work

1152
00:47:11,340 --> 00:47:10,869
on a problem relevant to the state and

1153
00:47:13,170 --> 00:47:11,350
the

1154
00:47:15,270 --> 00:47:13,180
produce reports and recommendations and

1155
00:47:16,830 --> 00:47:15,280
off they go go well Greenfield was

1156
00:47:18,690 --> 00:47:16,840
probably the most productive of all

1157
00:47:21,330 --> 00:47:18,700
because a huge amount came out of her

1158
00:47:23,490 --> 00:47:21,340
visit including the establishing of the

1159
00:47:24,840 --> 00:47:23,500
Australian science media center it's

1160
00:47:30,360 --> 00:47:24,850
based in Adelaide but it's a national

1161
00:47:32,790 --> 00:47:30,370
body it's got a very large board and it

1162
00:47:35,250 --> 00:47:32,800
probably has the we've got all the major

1163
00:47:39,690 --> 00:47:35,260
media players that are very high level

1164
00:47:41,310 --> 00:47:39,700
to sit on the board and its task is

1165
00:47:45,060 --> 00:47:41,320
really to improve the dialogue between

1166
00:47:46,980 --> 00:47:45,070
science and the media so it has this is

1167
00:47:48,540 --> 00:47:46,990
stable of people who are good in the

1168
00:47:50,340 --> 00:47:48,550
media scientists did good in the media

1169
00:47:52,430 --> 00:47:50,350
who can be called upon and I prepared to

1170
00:47:57,320 --> 00:47:52,440
be called upon at a moment's notice to

1171
00:48:00,990 --> 00:47:57,330
comment on issues of scientific interest

1172
00:48:02,970 --> 00:48:01,000
it sets up briefings online encourage

1173
00:48:04,650 --> 00:48:02,980
anyone to look at the website because

1174
00:48:06,210 --> 00:48:04,660
you can join in on the breathing she can

1175
00:48:08,910 --> 00:48:06,220
hear the stuff being discussed by

1176
00:48:10,500 --> 00:48:08,920
experts and most of the science you're

1177
00:48:11,820 --> 00:48:10,510
now finding in the media across

1178
00:48:15,470 --> 00:48:11,830
Australia is coming out of those

1179
00:48:18,210 --> 00:48:15,480
briefings heads up horizon scanning a

1180
00:48:19,890 --> 00:48:18,220
huge when they don't get their name in

1181
00:48:22,050 --> 00:48:19,900
it because they keep the science media

1182
00:48:25,170 --> 00:48:22,060
center named out they just catalyze the

1183
00:48:27,570 --> 00:48:25,180
coverage but it has been a particular

1184
00:48:29,550 --> 00:48:27,580
godsend to the Science reporter who is

1185
00:48:31,890 --> 00:48:29,560
not trained in science right the

1186
00:48:34,350 --> 00:48:31,900
journalist who has to cover science and

1187
00:48:37,830 --> 00:48:34,360
is often at see some of the science

1188
00:48:39,570 --> 00:48:37,840
reporters who especially a bit edgy

1189
00:48:41,690 --> 00:48:39,580
about it because of course they've built

1190
00:48:44,430 --> 00:48:41,700
up all their context yes they know we

1191
00:48:45,720 --> 00:48:44,440
make me a leg those are and then

1192
00:48:47,220 --> 00:48:45,730
suddenly come when it comes along and

1193
00:48:49,140 --> 00:48:47,230
makes it available to everybody they

1194
00:48:52,110 --> 00:48:49,150
think they've lost their edge but you

1195
00:48:55,170 --> 00:48:52,120
know I think that's a thin argument if I

1196
00:48:56,580 --> 00:48:55,180
can't find an extra edge in a story with

1197
00:48:59,370 --> 00:48:56,590
my science background I probably

1198
00:49:01,320 --> 00:48:59,380
shouldn't be in the front yeah and you

1199
00:49:03,150 --> 00:49:01,330
know you can get an online briefing with

1200
00:49:04,620 --> 00:49:03,160
all the experts ask the questions you

1201
00:49:06,090 --> 00:49:04,630
like everyone hears them but you can

1202
00:49:07,620 --> 00:49:06,100
also get them and say look could I have

1203
00:49:08,970 --> 00:49:07,630
a few words afterwards and get your

1204
00:49:12,300 --> 00:49:08,980
particular angle so you've got something

1205
00:49:14,220 --> 00:49:12,310
that no no Cisco so I think that's I

1206
00:49:16,470 --> 00:49:14,230
think it's been a huge force for good

1207
00:49:18,240 --> 00:49:16,480
and when you look at the coverage

1208
00:49:18,710 --> 00:49:18,250
because we we monitor what comes out of

1209
00:49:21,170 --> 00:49:18,720
those

1210
00:49:22,970 --> 00:49:21,180
things it is vast and the amount of

1211
00:49:25,880 --> 00:49:22,980
science that's getting reported now and

1212
00:49:28,190 --> 00:49:25,890
reported will its vast the briefings are

1213
00:49:31,040 --> 00:49:28,200
good because if somebody wants to beat a

1214
00:49:33,560 --> 00:49:31,050
story up they in there beat up they know

1215
00:49:34,940 --> 00:49:33,570
that there were 10 other journalists who

1216
00:49:37,250 --> 00:49:34,950
were there who heard the same thing that

1217
00:49:39,230 --> 00:49:37,260
they did who'll be reporting it many of

1218
00:49:41,240 --> 00:49:39,240
them properly so it acts as a bit of a

1219
00:49:44,630 --> 00:49:41,250
damper on the person he just wants to

1220
00:49:47,630 --> 00:49:44,640
extrapolate too much that's been

1221
00:49:49,250 --> 00:49:47,640
extremely good at the same time a lot of

1222
00:49:51,470 --> 00:49:49,260
media outlets are cutting back on

1223
00:49:55,940 --> 00:49:51,480
science reporters so we're losing the

1224
00:49:57,410 --> 00:49:55,950
specialist and I'm afraid that we're

1225
00:50:00,140 --> 00:49:57,420
also getting people who are better at

1226
00:50:02,930 --> 00:50:00,150
writing media releases hmm in a way that

1227
00:50:04,760 --> 00:50:02,940
is almost the story and I've seen a lot

1228
00:50:07,220 --> 00:50:04,770
of them that just make it straight from

1229
00:50:10,130 --> 00:50:07,230
Ed release into the media outlet with no

1230
00:50:11,810 --> 00:50:10,140
change yes so that's two on media what's

1231
00:50:14,599 --> 00:50:11,820
actually is yeah that's right that's

1232
00:50:16,099 --> 00:50:14,609
right and that's frightening because if

1233
00:50:17,780 --> 00:50:16,109
you write it will some little

1234
00:50:21,950 --> 00:50:17,790
journalists under pressure is wrong that

1235
00:50:24,140 --> 00:50:21,960
looks good to me yes yeah yeah yeah I've

1236
00:50:26,420 --> 00:50:24,150
had my media releases used word for word

1237
00:50:30,320 --> 00:50:26,430
with somebody else's name Alma zabala

1238
00:50:32,570 --> 00:50:30,330
and in a way it's legitimate because a

1239
00:50:34,370 --> 00:50:32,580
media release the ghost to a newsroom

1240
00:50:36,589 --> 00:50:34,380
can be treated as a journalist sees fit

1241
00:50:41,089 --> 00:50:36,599
but I think it's really peculiar in

1242
00:50:43,400 --> 00:50:41,099
every word it's my money I mean it

1243
00:50:45,140 --> 00:50:43,410
shouldn't ever be put the whole Espada's

1244
00:50:47,060 --> 00:50:45,150
anyway a journalist should say well ok

1245
00:50:50,120 --> 00:50:47,070
that's what these people say let's test

1246
00:50:52,220 --> 00:50:50,130
it yes they just a doctor plug and and

1247
00:50:54,530 --> 00:50:52,230
that's worrying because a lot of stuff

1248
00:50:57,290 --> 00:50:54,540
which is masquerading as science reports

1249
00:51:00,470 --> 00:50:57,300
is thinly disguised advertisements for

1250
00:51:05,480 --> 00:51:00,480
weight loss lyrics and drugs on the

1251
00:51:07,310 --> 00:51:05,490
market and yeah crank stuff sure yeah in

1252
00:51:09,109 --> 00:51:07,320
fact so i came across exactly what

1253
00:51:10,400 --> 00:51:09,119
you're talking about I'm last week in

1254
00:51:12,800 --> 00:51:10,410
the Sydney Morning Herald there was an

1255
00:51:15,230 --> 00:51:12,810
article in the health section that was

1256
00:51:16,810 --> 00:51:15,240
supposed to be about moisturizers for

1257
00:51:19,670 --> 00:51:16,820
women and it was a thinly veiled

1258
00:51:21,890 --> 00:51:19,680
advertisement for expensive photomatix

1259
00:51:23,420 --> 00:51:21,900
really it was just this product is four

1260
00:51:24,829 --> 00:51:23,430
hundred dollars compared to that one see

1261
00:51:27,079 --> 00:51:24,839
should use the four hundred dollar one

1262
00:51:28,730 --> 00:51:27,089
there was no critical analysis there was

1263
00:51:30,859 --> 00:51:28,740
no science behind it there was nothing

1264
00:51:31,980 --> 00:51:30,869
and that's you know in The Herald and

1265
00:51:34,410 --> 00:51:31,990
for someone who

1266
00:51:35,520 --> 00:51:34,420
doesn't know much about science they'd

1267
00:51:38,490 --> 00:51:35,530
read that and go oh well they obviously

1268
00:51:40,230 --> 00:51:38,500
are better yeah yeah well I'm afraid

1269
00:51:43,560 --> 00:51:40,240
that's happening more and more so it's a

1270
00:51:45,810 --> 00:51:43,570
very mixed bag this the good stuff is

1271
00:51:47,790 --> 00:51:45,820
getting better there's more of the good

1272
00:51:49,680 --> 00:51:47,800
stuff there's also more of the bad stuff

1273
00:51:52,590 --> 00:51:49,690
and it's been less critically examined

1274
00:51:54,630 --> 00:51:52,600
yeah yeah so what else you doing now

1275
00:51:58,020 --> 00:51:54,640
Robbie on the board of the Australian

1276
00:52:00,720 --> 00:51:58,030
science mediation center it's still

1277
00:52:03,420 --> 00:52:00,730
itching as well aren't you know only

1278
00:52:06,090 --> 00:52:03,430
only an occasional election I'm cheer of

1279
00:52:07,530 --> 00:52:06,100
cyworld we had we're now I think the

1280
00:52:10,320 --> 00:52:07,540
only state that doesn't have a science

1281
00:52:11,730 --> 00:52:10,330
technology center we did have but the

1282
00:52:14,370 --> 00:52:11,740
board closed it they reckon they weren't

1283
00:52:15,900 --> 00:52:14,380
getting enough money ok we didn't want

1284
00:52:18,690 --> 00:52:15,910
to see in directive science finish here

1285
00:52:20,490 --> 00:52:18,700
so few of us brought those assets and we

1286
00:52:23,850 --> 00:52:20,500
keep going as best we can we haven't got

1287
00:52:26,340 --> 00:52:23,860
a premises but we we go out to other

1288
00:52:28,140 --> 00:52:26,350
people's premises and set up there we've

1289
00:52:30,780 --> 00:52:28,150
got a very nice grant we've established

1290
00:52:32,280 --> 00:52:30,790
a robotics unit with its own van so they

1291
00:52:36,330 --> 00:52:32,290
can go off to school just so that's it

1292
00:52:39,420 --> 00:52:36,340
wow that's view but a bit of a

1293
00:52:42,300 --> 00:52:39,430
shoestring operation but that takes a

1294
00:52:45,359 --> 00:52:42,310
bit of time don't you a bit of radio

1295
00:52:51,780 --> 00:52:45,369
work trying to keep busy the moment

1296
00:52:53,760 --> 00:52:51,790
building on the house that's a fool I'll

1297
00:52:56,400 --> 00:52:53,770
Rob Morrison what a pleasure it has been

1298
00:52:58,260 --> 00:52:56,410
to chat with you today and I'm sure our

1299
00:52:59,520 --> 00:52:58,270
listeners especially those in Australia

1300
00:53:01,950 --> 00:52:59,530
will get a thrill out of hearing your

1301
00:53:04,830 --> 00:53:01,960
stories of the curiosity show because I

1302
00:53:06,480 --> 00:53:04,840
was just saying to Rachel before there

1303
00:53:10,230 --> 00:53:06,490
are many people may be in my age group

1304
00:53:12,630 --> 00:53:10,240
with the 40's with young kids who would

1305
00:53:15,990 --> 00:53:12,640
be the curiosity show age kids

1306
00:53:17,280 --> 00:53:16,000
themselves now yes we we'd covered we

1307
00:53:21,090 --> 00:53:17,290
just don't have to cover sort two

1308
00:53:23,849 --> 00:53:21,100
generations hmm as a bit alarming I get

1309
00:53:25,410 --> 00:53:23,859
some bull middle-aged incoming I'm

1310
00:53:31,200 --> 00:53:25,420
saying I used to watch you when I was a

1311
00:53:33,920 --> 00:53:31,210
boy sorry frightening no I can't let you

1312
00:53:36,510 --> 00:53:33,930
go and I'm just reaching into my bag I

1313
00:53:40,320 --> 00:53:36,520
have bought a book on the internet on

1314
00:53:41,970 --> 00:53:40,330
ebay supermind stretches oh well that's

1315
00:53:44,490 --> 00:53:41,980
actually what i did with Dean we did

1316
00:53:45,490 --> 00:53:44,500
about 10 together yeah and I think this

1317
00:53:47,830 --> 00:53:45,500
was the first

1318
00:53:49,960 --> 00:53:47,840
was back when Ashton scholastic was

1319
00:53:51,820 --> 00:53:49,970
producing a huge lot of is the work for

1320
00:53:55,180 --> 00:53:51,830
Ashton's I don't you run wells ago yeah

1321
00:53:56,860 --> 00:53:55,190
well so we started with with them and

1322
00:53:59,650 --> 00:53:56,870
then went to Jack around room we did

1323
00:54:00,940 --> 00:53:59,660
about I'd wrap tin together yeah I've

1324
00:54:04,330 --> 00:54:00,950
done if I have you know that cost me

1325
00:54:09,820 --> 00:54:04,340
about two dollars on me well money very

1326
00:54:11,290 --> 00:54:09,830
well spit so I'll be delighted if you

1327
00:54:13,240 --> 00:54:11,300
could autograph that for me would be

1328
00:54:14,830 --> 00:54:13,250
wonderful and of course as a thank you

1329
00:54:17,920 --> 00:54:14,840
for appearing today I'd like to give you

1330
00:54:19,570 --> 00:54:17,930
this DVD of Australian poetry ah thank

1331
00:54:21,760 --> 00:54:19,580
you very much you make sure it may well

1332
00:54:25,030 --> 00:54:21,770
enjoy by our voiceover menja moshe oh

1333
00:54:27,450 --> 00:54:25,040
let us all filmed in the beautiful

1334
00:54:29,950 --> 00:54:27,460
Murray River area down near Aubrey

1335
00:54:32,140 --> 00:54:29,960
rhyming Australian perf yeah you might

1336
00:54:35,410 --> 00:54:32,150
want enjoy that yeah will indeed I've

1337
00:54:38,650 --> 00:54:35,420
just been well I'm not really a poet my

1338
00:54:40,210 --> 00:54:38,660
photos of hurt I'm a dog or a list I've

1339
00:54:43,060 --> 00:54:40,220
just done something for the science show

1340
00:54:45,100 --> 00:54:43,070
one on some lesser-known aspects of

1341
00:54:47,850 --> 00:54:45,110
Darwin's long illness to celebrate the

1342
00:54:50,440 --> 00:54:47,860
Darwin year and I've just completed a

1343
00:54:52,780 --> 00:54:50,450
well-written science has added a lot to

1344
00:54:55,840 --> 00:54:52,790
our lives but Shakespeare of course any

1345
00:54:58,000 --> 00:54:55,850
rate the seven ages of man it shakes be

1346
00:55:00,010 --> 00:54:58,010
himself popped off at 52 so he didn't

1347
00:55:02,020 --> 00:55:00,020
even get to the simin but i reckon

1348
00:55:03,880 --> 00:55:02,030
science has added such a lot that we

1349
00:55:08,260 --> 00:55:03,890
needed three more ages which are now

1350
00:55:20,569 --> 00:55:08,270
right now so why should I that very much

1351
00:55:25,980 --> 00:55:23,550
you're listening too far by George Arab

1352
00:55:30,210 --> 00:55:25,990
you can find out more about George her

1353
00:55:34,050 --> 00:55:30,220
ad by visit his website and WWJ ab dot

1354
00:55:35,670 --> 00:55:34,060
on blogspot com where you can even find

1355
00:55:37,980 --> 00:55:35,680
the lyrics to this song try singing

1356
00:55:41,220 --> 00:55:37,990
along with it of course he's singing

1357
00:55:45,390 --> 00:55:41,230
about the 365 days of astronomy podcast

1358
00:55:49,050 --> 00:55:45,400
one podcast every day for 2009 and you

1359
00:55:52,710 --> 00:55:49,060
can find that at 365 days of astronomy

1360
00:56:01,930 --> 00:55:52,720
onward or go check it out there'll be a

1361
00:56:07,579 --> 00:56:05,640
there by Carla today

1362
00:56:19,450 --> 00:56:07,589
just all stars ways are

1363
00:56:31,010 --> 00:56:22,240
let's all take this with a grain of salt

1364
00:56:33,490 --> 00:56:31,020
seas around second hello this is a run

1365
00:56:36,260 --> 00:56:33,500
segev taking life with a grain of salt

1366
00:56:39,320 --> 00:56:36,270
in most countries formal education

1367
00:56:41,660 --> 00:56:39,330
starts at the age of five or six in many

1368
00:56:44,300 --> 00:56:41,670
countries formal education is free and

1369
00:56:46,010 --> 00:56:44,310
compulsory this is certainly true in the

1370
00:56:47,480 --> 00:56:46,020
developed world though it is also

1371
00:56:50,240 --> 00:56:47,490
increasing deterring the developing

1372
00:56:51,800 --> 00:56:50,250
world and even in the third world the

1373
00:56:54,560 --> 00:56:51,810
implication is that by the time they are

1374
00:56:55,970 --> 00:56:54,570
18 most people will have spent more than

1375
00:56:58,340 --> 00:56:55,980
two-thirds of their lives in an

1376
00:57:00,550 --> 00:56:58,350
educational setting there is little

1377
00:57:02,599 --> 00:57:00,560
doubt that education is a positive

1378
00:57:04,070 --> 00:57:02,609
education is strongly positively

1379
00:57:07,070 --> 00:57:04,080
correlated with higher socioeconomic

1380
00:57:09,590 --> 00:57:07,080
status wider choice of occasions and

1381
00:57:11,060 --> 00:57:09,600
even better health this positive

1382
00:57:13,700 --> 00:57:11,070
correlation has been shown to be almost

1383
00:57:15,410 --> 00:57:13,710
certainly causal in many studies for

1384
00:57:17,480 --> 00:57:15,420
example there is now little doubt

1385
00:57:19,070 --> 00:57:17,490
amongst researchers that one surefire

1386
00:57:21,349 --> 00:57:19,080
way of reducing the number of children

1387
00:57:23,300 --> 00:57:21,359
families have and this is true in

1388
00:57:25,940 --> 00:57:23,310
particular in the third world is by

1389
00:57:27,830 --> 00:57:25,950
educating women since having fewer

1390
00:57:29,420 --> 00:57:27,840
children is linked with reduced poverty

1391
00:57:32,090 --> 00:57:29,430
and increased health for the entire

1392
00:57:34,970 --> 00:57:32,100
family the positive effect of education

1393
00:57:37,190 --> 00:57:34,980
is easy to see in this scenario it is

1394
00:57:39,650 --> 00:57:37,200
worth noting that i use qualifying terms

1395
00:57:41,450 --> 00:57:39,660
like almost certainly because it is

1396
00:57:43,580 --> 00:57:41,460
impossible to unequivocally prove a

1397
00:57:46,370 --> 00:57:43,590
one-to-one causal relationship in such a

1398
00:57:48,230 --> 00:57:46,380
complex area however for all practical

1399
00:57:51,980 --> 00:57:48,240
purposes it can be seen as having been

1400
00:57:53,650 --> 00:57:51,990
proven in the privileged life of most of

1401
00:57:56,870 --> 00:57:53,660
the population of a developed country

1402
00:57:58,520 --> 00:57:56,880
education is taken as a given currency

1403
00:58:00,200 --> 00:57:58,530
is frowned upon and is illegal in many

1404
00:58:02,120 --> 00:58:00,210
countries and even in lower

1405
00:58:04,280 --> 00:58:02,130
socioeconomic circles the vast majority

1406
00:58:06,950 --> 00:58:04,290
of children attend school and usually

1407
00:58:08,810 --> 00:58:06,960
finish high school I will note in

1408
00:58:10,460 --> 00:58:08,820
parenthesis that the situation may be

1409
00:58:12,230 --> 00:58:10,470
very different in what could be called

1410
00:58:14,120 --> 00:58:12,240
third-world pockets in developed

1411
00:58:16,280 --> 00:58:14,130
countries such as some Aboriginal

1412
00:58:18,410 --> 00:58:16,290
communities in Australia but live in

1413
00:58:20,930 --> 00:58:18,420
such abject poverty that the education

1414
00:58:22,490 --> 00:58:20,940
is not considered a priority though by

1415
00:58:24,170 --> 00:58:22,500
all rights it should be as

1416
00:58:27,620 --> 00:58:24,180
is no shorter way of rising out of

1417
00:58:29,390 --> 00:58:27,630
poverty than acquiring education with

1418
00:58:31,070 --> 00:58:29,400
such clear benefits talking about the

1419
00:58:33,380 --> 00:58:31,080
importance of education may not seem

1420
00:58:35,540 --> 00:58:33,390
like something as skeptics should do but

1421
00:58:37,010 --> 00:58:35,550
like in many areas of human endeavor in

1422
00:58:38,900 --> 00:58:37,020
education too there are trends

1423
00:58:42,380 --> 00:58:38,910
traditions and even fads and fashions

1424
00:58:44,180 --> 00:58:42,390
and these want a skeptical look I'll

1425
00:58:47,120 --> 00:58:44,190
start by looking at the importance of

1426
00:58:49,040 --> 00:58:47,130
academic achievement in Australia as in

1427
00:58:50,450 --> 00:58:49,050
many other countries a good school is

1428
00:58:52,670 --> 00:58:50,460
considered to be one in which the

1429
00:58:53,900 --> 00:58:52,680
average grades are high in some

1430
00:58:55,910 --> 00:58:53,910
countries there are school league tables

1431
00:58:58,070 --> 00:58:55,920
in which the average marks for each

1432
00:59:00,530 --> 00:58:58,080
school Ernie to place against other

1433
00:59:02,750 --> 00:59:00,540
schools it is considered a major honor

1434
00:59:04,340 --> 00:59:02,760
to be placed high in that table and for

1435
00:59:06,770 --> 00:59:04,350
private schools it can also mean a

1436
00:59:08,090 --> 00:59:06,780
significant revenue boost as parents are

1437
00:59:09,590 --> 00:59:08,100
willing to pay more for what is

1438
00:59:12,140 --> 00:59:09,600
considered to be better education for

1439
00:59:14,360 --> 00:59:12,150
their children the question that needs

1440
00:59:16,970 --> 00:59:14,370
to be asked in this respect is where the

1441
00:59:19,100 --> 00:59:16,980
average marks really mean much after all

1442
00:59:21,350 --> 00:59:19,110
it is well known that some children just

1443
00:59:23,510 --> 00:59:21,360
don't do that well in exams even if they

1444
00:59:26,300 --> 00:59:23,520
are knowledgeable and clever and to an

1445
00:59:29,330 --> 00:59:26,310
extent exams simply measure the ability

1446
00:59:30,710 --> 00:59:29,340
to pass exams but even if we accept that

1447
00:59:32,840 --> 00:59:30,720
exams are a good way of assessing

1448
00:59:35,960 --> 00:59:32,850
knowledge is knowledge really the most

1449
00:59:37,850 --> 00:59:35,970
important educational outcome there is

1450
00:59:40,400 --> 00:59:37,860
some evidence that adults remember very

1451
00:59:42,590 --> 00:59:40,410
few facts from their school years my own

1452
00:59:44,840 --> 00:59:42,600
experience is that the one single fact I

1453
00:59:47,080 --> 00:59:44,850
remember from high school history is the

1454
00:59:49,610 --> 00:59:47,090
reason for the Italia be seen Ian wall

1455
00:59:51,590 --> 00:59:49,620
the reason I remember it so well is that

1456
00:59:53,030 --> 00:59:51,600
my first encounter with a historical

1457
00:59:56,480 --> 00:59:53,040
fact that such a war had ever taken

1458
00:59:58,780 --> 00:59:56,490
place was during my final exam and in my

1459
01:00:01,460 --> 00:59:58,790
shame I did some research afterwards

1460
01:00:02,900 --> 01:00:01,470
personal experience aside studies have

1461
01:00:04,910 --> 01:00:02,910
shown that adults have been able to

1462
01:00:07,760 --> 01:00:04,920
reconstruct knowledge but not reproduce

1463
01:00:09,590 --> 01:00:07,770
it in other words the knowledge was gone

1464
01:00:11,210 --> 01:00:09,600
and what remained was some skill that

1465
01:00:13,240 --> 01:00:11,220
allowed the person to have a good guess

1466
01:00:15,830 --> 01:00:13,250
at what the knowledge might have been

1467
01:00:17,570 --> 01:00:15,840
this is not true of course if some

1468
01:00:19,610 --> 01:00:17,580
knowledge is used continuously after it

1469
01:00:21,080 --> 01:00:19,620
is learned and students that have a

1470
01:00:23,750 --> 01:00:21,090
particular affinity to a specific

1471
01:00:26,090 --> 01:00:23,760
subject tend to remember it better than

1472
01:00:27,650 --> 01:00:26,100
their average recollection but as a rule

1473
01:00:30,230 --> 01:00:27,660
it can be said that knowledge retention

1474
01:00:32,470 --> 01:00:30,240
is such that not much of it remains

1475
01:00:35,030 --> 01:00:32,480
several years after the end of school

1476
01:00:35,900 --> 01:00:35,040
let's go one step further and assume

1477
01:00:37,670 --> 01:00:35,910
that knowledge is very

1478
01:00:39,260 --> 01:00:37,680
important perhaps even the most

1479
01:00:41,870 --> 01:00:39,270
important thing for children to acquire

1480
01:00:44,599 --> 01:00:41,880
at school this brings up the question of

1481
01:00:46,490 --> 01:00:44,609
what knowledge should be taught of all

1482
01:00:48,950 --> 01:00:46,500
human knowledge only a tiny proportion

1483
01:00:50,450 --> 01:00:48,960
is taught in school when you have

1484
01:00:52,250 --> 01:00:50,460
bureaucrats making choices about

1485
01:00:53,480 --> 01:00:52,260
curriculum which means choosing a

1486
01:00:55,279 --> 01:00:53,490
fraction of a percent of all

1487
01:00:57,020 --> 01:00:55,289
possibilities and deciding that they are

1488
01:00:59,150 --> 01:00:57,030
the most important things children

1489
01:01:01,940 --> 01:00:59,160
should know how could we know that they

1490
01:01:03,890 --> 01:01:01,950
got it right in what way for example is

1491
01:01:05,059 --> 01:01:03,900
studying Ulysses more important than

1492
01:01:08,180 --> 01:01:05,069
learning the rules of the Chinese

1493
01:01:10,099 --> 01:01:08,190
strategy game go I will get back to this

1494
01:01:13,130 --> 01:01:10,109
question shortly but first I want to

1495
01:01:14,900 --> 01:01:13,140
offer an alternative view if knowledge

1496
01:01:17,960 --> 01:01:14,910
is not the most important thing learned

1497
01:01:19,849 --> 01:01:17,970
at school what is I contend that there

1498
01:01:22,010 --> 01:01:19,859
is more than one most important thing

1499
01:01:24,650 --> 01:01:22,020
but that all the important things are

1500
01:01:26,750 --> 01:01:24,660
skills learning skills social skills

1501
01:01:29,359 --> 01:01:26,760
work ethic independence

1502
01:01:31,490 --> 01:01:29,369
self-organization and also reading

1503
01:01:33,710 --> 01:01:31,500
writing and numeracy which are usually

1504
01:01:36,500 --> 01:01:33,720
considered as basic skills even though

1505
01:01:38,120 --> 01:01:36,510
they involve some knowledge referring

1506
01:01:40,460 --> 01:01:38,130
back to my question on James Joyce

1507
01:01:43,460 --> 01:01:40,470
versus Chinese games I want to present

1508
01:01:45,650 --> 01:01:43,470
the term pluralistic education the basic

1509
01:01:47,450 --> 01:01:45,660
idea of pluralistic education is that

1510
01:01:49,730 --> 01:01:47,460
curricula are not described in terms of

1511
01:01:52,220 --> 01:01:49,740
topics there are variations on the theme

1512
01:01:54,289 --> 01:01:52,230
but in general the idea is that as long

1513
01:01:57,380 --> 01:01:54,299
as children acquire skills it does not

1514
01:01:58,970 --> 01:01:57,390
matter how they do so for example the

1515
01:02:00,349 --> 01:01:58,980
skill of planning ahead in thinking

1516
01:02:02,750 --> 01:02:00,359
several steps beyond the current

1517
01:02:04,849 --> 01:02:02,760
situation can be learned or mastered by

1518
01:02:07,730 --> 01:02:04,859
planning and creating a scale model of a

1519
01:02:10,220 --> 01:02:07,740
famous building or plane go or through

1520
01:02:11,930 --> 01:02:10,230
numerous other activities each of the

1521
01:02:14,150 --> 01:02:11,940
activities will probably contribute to

1522
01:02:16,609 --> 01:02:14,160
more than one skill and probably be much

1523
01:02:18,349 --> 01:02:16,619
more interesting for the student for the

1524
01:02:20,210 --> 01:02:18,359
skill of wading through a thousand pages

1525
01:02:22,190 --> 01:02:20,220
of impenetrable language with grit and

1526
01:02:24,589 --> 01:02:22,200
determination there is probably nothing

1527
01:02:26,720 --> 01:02:24,599
that can equal Ulysses but for being

1528
01:02:28,430 --> 01:02:26,730
able to read a book and understand it at

1529
01:02:30,289 --> 01:02:28,440
the many levels that a good work of

1530
01:02:32,510 --> 01:02:30,299
literature operates on there are

1531
01:02:34,640 --> 01:02:32,520
literally thousands of options and the

1532
01:02:36,200 --> 01:02:34,650
choice of relatively small number is

1533
01:02:38,569 --> 01:02:36,210
related to the needs of bureaucracy

1534
01:02:41,150 --> 01:02:38,579
management and teachers not to those of

1535
01:02:43,160 --> 01:02:41,160
students and all that is said with a

1536
01:02:44,900 --> 01:02:43,170
charitable assumption that being able to

1537
01:02:48,470 --> 01:02:44,910
read a book this way is an important

1538
01:02:49,640 --> 01:02:48,480
skill this focus our knowledge and more

1539
01:02:51,470 --> 01:02:49,650
importantly on a very

1540
01:02:53,299 --> 01:02:51,480
specific subset of human knowledge is

1541
01:02:55,579 --> 01:02:53,309
particularly troubling in a world that

1542
01:02:57,620 --> 01:02:55,589
is changing so quickly that there is no

1543
01:02:59,390 --> 01:02:57,630
practical way to know what knowledge the

1544
01:03:01,880 --> 01:02:59,400
students of today will need in 10 years

1545
01:03:04,940 --> 01:03:01,890
time or even if that knowledge exists

1546
01:03:06,559 --> 01:03:04,950
today do the perceived importance of

1547
01:03:08,089 --> 01:03:06,569
academic achievement and the actual

1548
01:03:10,870 --> 01:03:08,099
importance of skills Khan did it

1549
01:03:12,829 --> 01:03:10,880
contradict each other not entirely a

1550
01:03:15,140 --> 01:03:12,839
student who does well academically

1551
01:03:16,430 --> 01:03:15,150
across multiple subject is likely to

1552
01:03:18,529 --> 01:03:16,440
have a good measure of the skills

1553
01:03:20,299 --> 01:03:18,539
mentioned earlier although it is easy to

1554
01:03:22,940 --> 01:03:20,309
imagine a student with no social skills

1555
01:03:24,620 --> 01:03:22,950
independence or self-organization that

1556
01:03:27,500 --> 01:03:24,630
just gets by on the force of parental

1557
01:03:29,990 --> 01:03:27,510
threats conversely a student with all of

1558
01:03:33,319 --> 01:03:30,000
those skills but poor Rico or with fear

1559
01:03:35,299 --> 01:03:33,329
of exams might do very poorly in this

1560
01:03:37,819 --> 01:03:35,309
respect it might be said that academic

1561
01:03:40,640 --> 01:03:37,829
achievement on average is a fairly good

1562
01:03:42,470 --> 01:03:40,650
proxy for the skills I have mentioned my

1563
01:03:44,720 --> 01:03:42,480
gripe is mostly with the fact that most

1564
01:03:46,730 --> 01:03:44,730
people seem to so focus on academic

1565
01:03:48,650 --> 01:03:46,740
achievement that it becomes important in

1566
01:03:51,529 --> 01:03:48,660
its own right and not as a measure of

1567
01:03:53,630 --> 01:03:51,539
other achievements and abilities that

1568
01:03:55,730 --> 01:03:53,640
such a focus exists can easily be seen

1569
01:03:58,579 --> 01:03:55,740
in Australia in the high regard in which

1570
01:04:00,319 --> 01:03:58,589
single-sex schools are held a straw poll

1571
01:04:01,789 --> 01:04:00,329
I conducted for this talk amongst

1572
01:04:04,700 --> 01:04:01,799
parents whose high school children

1573
01:04:06,680 --> 01:04:04,710
attend to co-ed schools has shown that

1574
01:04:08,930 --> 01:04:06,690
almost all of them think that single-sex

1575
01:04:11,329 --> 01:04:08,940
schools are better it stands to reason

1576
01:04:13,490 --> 01:04:11,339
that the results would get closer to one

1577
01:04:15,670 --> 01:04:13,500
hundred percent had I also asked parents

1578
01:04:18,079 --> 01:04:15,680
of kids who attend single-sex schools

1579
01:04:19,880 --> 01:04:18,089
when asked why the almost universal

1580
01:04:22,370 --> 01:04:19,890
answer was that kids do better

1581
01:04:25,609 --> 01:04:22,380
academically without the interference of

1582
01:04:27,349 --> 01:04:25,619
attention to the opposite sex evidence

1583
01:04:30,079 --> 01:04:27,359
as to whether the last statement is true

1584
01:04:31,819 --> 01:04:30,089
has been hard to come by it is probably

1585
01:04:33,500 --> 01:04:31,829
telling that a lot of room to the

1586
01:04:35,990 --> 01:04:33,510
information comes from sites with all

1587
01:04:38,420 --> 01:04:36,000
revealing names such as single sex

1588
01:04:41,420 --> 01:04:38,430
schools org I think you know what you'll

1589
01:04:43,519 --> 01:04:41,430
find there I will reserve judgment on

1590
01:04:45,529 --> 01:04:43,529
that question for the time being due to

1591
01:04:47,599 --> 01:04:45,539
the lack of reliable evidence but I

1592
01:04:49,670 --> 01:04:47,609
can't help wondering how come this

1593
01:04:51,980 --> 01:04:49,680
social aspect of separating boys and

1594
01:04:55,039 --> 01:04:51,990
girls is ignored or at least considered

1595
01:04:57,079 --> 01:04:55,049
secondary being separated from the other

1596
01:04:59,089 --> 01:04:57,089
sex is a situation that children are

1597
01:05:01,039 --> 01:04:59,099
unlikely to encounter as any time during

1598
01:05:02,750 --> 01:05:01,049
the rest of their lives unless they

1599
01:05:03,270 --> 01:05:02,760
become professional footballers or some

1600
01:05:05,010 --> 01:05:03,280
other

1601
01:05:07,650 --> 01:05:05,020
profession were almost everybody around

1602
01:05:09,000 --> 01:05:07,660
is of the same sex yet the impact on

1603
01:05:10,680 --> 01:05:09,010
preparing them for adulthood is

1604
01:05:12,060 --> 01:05:10,690
generally not considered important

1605
01:05:14,670 --> 01:05:12,070
enough to warrant a mention and

1606
01:05:16,320 --> 01:05:14,680
certainly not important enough to see

1607
01:05:18,630 --> 01:05:16,330
single sex schools are potentially very

1608
01:05:21,930 --> 01:05:18,640
problematic in terms of social skills

1609
01:05:23,700 --> 01:05:21,940
acquired by the students one educational

1610
01:05:26,310 --> 01:05:23,710
philosophy which generally promotes

1611
01:05:28,290 --> 01:05:26,320
pluralistic education and puts a special

1612
01:05:31,200 --> 01:05:28,300
emphasis on social skills is the

1613
01:05:32,880 --> 01:05:31,210
democratic education philosophy this is

1614
01:05:34,950 --> 01:05:32,890
very much a growing movement around the

1615
01:05:37,230 --> 01:05:34,960
world that the impact in Australia has

1616
01:05:38,880 --> 01:05:37,240
been minimal with only about 2,000

1617
01:05:41,730 --> 01:05:38,890
students in all of Australia attending

1618
01:05:43,320 --> 01:05:41,740
such schools it's worth noting that even

1619
01:05:45,720 --> 01:05:43,330
in schools that are not declared as

1620
01:05:47,310 --> 01:05:45,730
democratic there is often a move towards

1621
01:05:50,070 --> 01:05:47,320
implementing some of the philosophies of

1622
01:05:52,230 --> 01:05:50,080
this movement democratic education is

1623
01:05:55,070 --> 01:05:52,240
much bigger than other countries and in

1624
01:05:57,120 --> 01:05:55,080
particular in Europe ended in Israel

1625
01:05:59,280 --> 01:05:57,130
democratic schools are varied in their

1626
01:06:01,140 --> 01:05:59,290
approaches but they all share the common

1627
01:06:02,400 --> 01:06:01,150
view the children should have as much

1628
01:06:05,160 --> 01:06:02,410
control over their learning and

1629
01:06:07,170 --> 01:06:05,170
environment as possible in some schools

1630
01:06:08,970 --> 01:06:07,180
this is manifested as allowing children

1631
01:06:11,190 --> 01:06:08,980
to choose what they do on different days

1632
01:06:14,100 --> 01:06:11,200
of the week while leaving control over

1633
01:06:15,660 --> 01:06:14,110
the overall mix with the teachers in

1634
01:06:17,910 --> 01:06:15,670
other schools learning is not at all

1635
01:06:19,410 --> 01:06:17,920
compulsory as the view is that children

1636
01:06:22,320 --> 01:06:19,420
are eager to learn and will initiate

1637
01:06:24,300 --> 01:06:22,330
their own learning if left alone in yet

1638
01:06:26,520 --> 01:06:24,310
other such schools called Sudbury Valley

1639
01:06:28,350 --> 01:06:26,530
Schools it is considered a breach of

1640
01:06:30,270 --> 01:06:28,360
protocol to suggest the topic to

1641
01:06:32,520 --> 01:06:30,280
children if they want to learn something

1642
01:06:35,040 --> 01:06:32,530
they'll ask is the usual line of

1643
01:06:36,840 --> 01:06:35,050
reasoning high they will be exposed to

1644
01:06:39,960 --> 01:06:36,850
new information is not something I have

1645
01:06:42,210 --> 01:06:39,970
been able to determine however liberal

1646
01:06:43,800 --> 01:06:42,220
each school maybe and they're all very

1647
01:06:46,530 --> 01:06:43,810
liberal there are no conservative

1648
01:06:47,820 --> 01:06:46,540
Democratic schools to my knowledge they

1649
01:06:49,440 --> 01:06:47,830
all share the basic premise that

1650
01:06:51,030 --> 01:06:49,450
children can set their own boundaries

1651
01:06:53,880 --> 01:06:51,040
and should be given freedom to manage

1652
01:06:55,500 --> 01:06:53,890
their own lives I have to admit that i

1653
01:06:57,870 --> 01:06:55,510
find the philosophy behind this movement

1654
01:06:59,730 --> 01:06:57,880
appealing i've been involved with the

1655
01:07:01,830 --> 01:06:59,740
democratic schools movement in australia

1656
01:07:03,900 --> 01:07:01,840
for almost 10 years and I still run

1657
01:07:06,960 --> 01:07:03,910
their website and discussion groups or

1658
01:07:08,430 --> 01:07:06,970
I'm not an active participant despite my

1659
01:07:10,530 --> 01:07:08,440
close affiliation with those schools

1660
01:07:13,110 --> 01:07:10,540
I've been at loggerheads with several

1661
01:07:13,880 --> 01:07:13,120
participants usually teachers in the

1662
01:07:15,290 --> 01:07:13,890
past

1663
01:07:16,850 --> 01:07:15,300
as I do not accept that children

1664
01:07:19,100 --> 01:07:16,860
intuitively know what they need to learn

1665
01:07:21,020 --> 01:07:19,110
and I contend that it is the

1666
01:07:22,730 --> 01:07:21,030
responsibility of adults to convey both

1667
01:07:25,520 --> 01:07:22,740
skills and essential knowledge to

1668
01:07:27,650 --> 01:07:25,530
children throughout human evolution

1669
01:07:29,870 --> 01:07:27,660
children were actively taught what to do

1670
01:07:31,670 --> 01:07:29,880
by adults around them they learned much

1671
01:07:34,840 --> 01:07:31,680
of the rest by observation and imitation

1672
01:07:36,980 --> 01:07:34,850
and a little bit by trial and error

1673
01:07:39,230 --> 01:07:36,990
learning too much by trial and error

1674
01:07:41,000 --> 01:07:39,240
would mean lots of errors at a time when

1675
01:07:43,700 --> 01:07:41,010
errors could cost a child's life much

1676
01:07:45,890 --> 01:07:43,710
more readily than they do today if

1677
01:07:47,570 --> 01:07:45,900
that's how we evolved there is a good

1678
01:07:50,210 --> 01:07:47,580
reason to believe that that's how we are

1679
01:07:52,010 --> 01:07:50,220
wired I'm not suggesting that we should

1680
01:07:54,950 --> 01:07:52,020
always follow our prime evil tendencies

1681
01:07:56,780 --> 01:07:54,960
but to suggest an educational philosophy

1682
01:07:58,790 --> 01:07:56,790
that is based on a feel-good concept

1683
01:08:00,800 --> 01:07:58,800
that is probably contradictory to the

1684
01:08:03,680 --> 01:08:00,810
way our learning ability works is

1685
01:08:05,660 --> 01:08:03,690
unlikely to be productive as a minimum i

1686
01:08:07,970 --> 01:08:05,670
would hope that anyone proposing such a

1687
01:08:10,670 --> 01:08:07,980
method will be able to provide evidence

1688
01:08:13,100 --> 01:08:10,680
that he works if I could have it my way

1689
01:08:15,650 --> 01:08:13,110
I would want to see education systems

1690
01:08:18,170 --> 01:08:15,660
that are pluralistic skill focused and

1691
01:08:33,010 --> 01:08:18,180
evidence-based but I'm afraid I'll have

1692
01:08:38,180 --> 01:08:35,059
thank you for joining me for this

1693
01:08:40,370 --> 01:08:38,190
episode of the skeptic zone our special

1694
01:08:43,689 --> 01:08:40,380
guest next week on the first of may show

1695
01:08:46,609 --> 01:08:43,699
number 28 is none other than Stephen Fry

1696
01:08:48,260 --> 01:08:46,619
sad but people naturally want to cut

1697
01:08:49,910 --> 01:08:48,270
corn as much as water wants to go the

1698
01:08:51,829 --> 01:08:49,920
shortest route to the sea so human

1699
01:08:53,779 --> 01:08:51,839
beings want to go the shortest route to

1700
01:08:55,459 --> 01:08:53,789
the truth unfortunately it takes on the

1701
01:08:57,019 --> 01:08:55,469
shortest route to to the great

1702
01:08:58,819 --> 01:08:57,029
ocean of that lies out there

1703
01:09:01,370 --> 01:08:58,829
and all those people have prepared to

1704
01:09:04,039 --> 01:09:01,380
make money out of them that's Stephen

1705
01:09:06,410 --> 01:09:04,049
Fry appearing next week on the skeptics

1706
01:09:12,319 --> 01:09:06,420
own until then this is Richard Saunders

1707
01:09:14,720 --> 01:09:12,329
signing off from Sydney Australia you've

1708
01:09:19,339 --> 01:09:14,730
been listening to the skeptic zone visit

1709
01:09:21,799 --> 01:09:19,349
our website at www scripting zone TV for

1710
01:09:24,099 --> 01:09:21,809
comments contacts and extra video

1711
01:09:34,690 --> 01:09:24,109
reports